Where 2 or more gather in my name [Archive]

Papabull

04-06-2005, 05:37 AM

"For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them" (Matt. 18:20).

Within this forum, many gather in His name and in His spirit. Fellowship with our brothers and Sisters in Christ is important in our daily lives and it is meant to be that way. We are weak and sinful creatures, unrighteous every one. In Christ, we find redemption and forgiveness. In his blood, we are cleansed and in his sacrifice he has given us life.

This is why we come to this place and enjoy fellowship. The Lord is mysterious and we do not understand his ways. We can only pray and commune in spirit with him, letting him fill us with his spirit and letting him guide our lives. Through our actions and our words, do we serve him.

It pains me to hear that friction and unease has crept into this forum. Whether it is pride in our own personal knowledge or relationship with Christ, arrogance in our own righteousness and true understanding of the Scriptures or lapse of Christian love and humility, we need to be mindful that none of us is worthy of the Kingdom of God and that Christ and Christ only is our salvation - not our knowledge, wisdom or holiness.

We are only human. We can be too hard on ourselves and we can be too hard on others. We can have bad days and be irritable, irascible and curt without really meaning any harm. But we must remember that despite our intentions, it is important to develop our relationship with our brothers and sisters in Christ just as it is important to develop our relationship with Christ. One of the most common references in the scriptures to human weakness is the frequent admonishment regarding the damage we can do with our tongues. Words are powerful. Use them wisely. Use them kindly. Use them with compassion and understanding.

And when all else fails and our patience has been worth threadbare, keep in mind that under the button USER CP, there are many options, among which is an IGNORE LIST.

I sincerely hope we take some time to think about how our discussions and comments affect our brothers and sisters here and that we allow Christ to temper our tongues with wisdom and that they speak with the love of Christ.

Esquire, Cato, Myself and all the other Moderators all has an open door.... or at least an open e-mail/PM... policy. :) We will always listen and we will always strive to maintain a forum here that is inviting and spritually uplifting. There is no place for strife and conflict here. As administrator, I can assure everyone that we are listening and we care about how everyone here feels.

If this open message to the forum was ambiguous or if anyone should have questions or issues, I am always ready to listen and to help. No one will ever be on my personal ignore list.

Bless you one and all.

Bill McNeal

04-06-2005, 01:38 PM

That was really a nice post Rob.

I totally agree that it is much better to simply ignore someone, rather than to allow anger to rule the day. Some of my closet brothers and I disagree on several issues with regards to Scripture, yet we still practice love, and respect towards oneanother. On the other hand I have encountered "brothers" who were unyeilding, and quickly resorted to anger, name calling, slander and so forth. These people I avoid because I cannot allow myself to be drug down into anger with them.

Sadly, I feel you are correct in suggesting that "pride" is at the root of most "disagreements". The suggestion that Traditional Church Doctrine might be wrong is met with as much teeth gnashing by religous folks, as putting recurve limbs on compound risers causes the Trad "purists" to howl and gnash :) :) :)

As a lowly member, I would simply recommend that if you can't respond to someone in a Christian manner, using Gods Word as your guide, then why not just not respond?. Or better yet, if you feel the need to get "personal", why not take it private? , like e-mail, or better yet, an actual telephone call? You would be suprised by how people tone down their manner when confronted personally.

The www is the hardest place to preach, and teach because you really have no idea who you are typing to. I have been cursed, cussed, and even had death threats directed at me {not on this forum}. This forum in my opinion is mild, but I can see the same anger, and sniping creeping in, and I hope that is not the case.

Anyway, I think the forum is great, and the folks are great. This may become a home away from home for me............there goes the neighborhood......hehehe

Shalom!

Cueball

04-06-2005, 06:30 PM

Robert, good to see your wisdom creep back into this portion of the site. I have always enjoyed your post in this forum and find your common sense as strong as your bow sense.

I think it is obvious why this post was started. I also think that the biggest problem has been the re hashing of ideas that are not going to be solved here.

Bill to you my friend I extend the olive branch of friendship. In return i would hope you can let a few of the over discused topics lie and lets move on to other things.

..............................................Roby .................................................. ......

Matt

04-07-2005, 08:55 PM

I'm sorry if I've said anything to disrupt this forum. I know that I've caused contriversy. I'm sorry for that. I'm finding that there are many wonderful people here. I hope that from now on I can add, rather than take away, from this forum. Again I'm sorry if I caused anyone to enjoy this place less.

WildmanSC

04-08-2005, 07:18 AM

Matt,

All you have said is "I'm a Mormon." While most of us would consider your religion to not be of the Christian faith, we have a big enough tent that we can openly discuss scriptural and spiritural topics. May the Holy Spirit have the liberty to work in hearts as we discuss the scriptures and may it not be quenched by overzealousness.

Bill Lamb

Larry Hatfield

04-08-2005, 03:25 PM

since mormans do recognize jesus christ as well as the holy trinity it seems to me that that is certainly christianity. the differences seem to be in the details, as in all things.
thats why it should be quite easy to discuss differences in religions in a factual and informative way. there seem always to be as many things that are alike as there are things that are disagreed on.
when "whos right" is made clear it will beyond any mortals power to do it over, so i enjoy learning about all ways of worship and gather all the points that agree and have pretty much decided that if a lot of very different religions agree on some basic standards of life and living, that those maxims are worth heeding in the way you live your life.
i can get as strong a feeling of fellowship for matt as i can for anyone else on this forum.
interesting discussion!

Cueball

04-08-2005, 03:56 PM

Larry, I am open to discussion with you Matt whoever but I can't honestly stand by and see how anyone can call the Mormon church christian. It is a matter of facts that obviously some have not taken the time to study. I know it is not politically correct to take such a stance but the truth is the truth. Mormons do not fit into 95% of the protestant definition of what a christian is. I will be polite and I will discuss the diferences in my faith with anyone but you can't call the Mormon faith christian and be accurate. It is much closer to a cult than chrisitianity.

.................................................. ............Roby.................................. ......

Larry Hatfield

04-08-2005, 04:04 PM

BLACK WOLF

04-08-2005, 04:48 PM

Bill McNeal

04-08-2005, 07:16 PM

***Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.***

My dear Brothers, be NOT decieved. Satan seeks to devour the Sheep. Just because some sheep invite the wolf in to feast with the flock does not mean that the pastors should turn a blind eye, and join in.

Shalom!

Cueball

04-08-2005, 07:35 PM

Just because you confess that you believe in christ does not make you a christian. If that were the case 98% of southern people would be christian I have rarely met a person in the south who would not tell Jesus is the son of man and died for the sins of the world. However you will see little or no evidence of a changed life. No fruit no relationship. How can you have a relationship with Jesus if you don't really know who he is or who his father is. I am attaching an article that speaks to this clearly. Like I said before I am not trying to be offensive but the truth is the truth. We as believers have to be careful in what we label under our lord and savior as a christian. The term has already had enough miss use.

Is Mormonism Christian?

"Is Mormonism Christian?" is a very important question. The answer is equally important and simple. No. Mormonism is not Christian.
If you are a Mormon, please realize that I am not trying to attack you, your character, or the sincerity of your belief. If you are a non-Mormon looking into Mormonism, or if you are a Christian who is simply researching Mormonism, then this paper should be of help to you.
The reason Mormonism is not Christian is because it, like any other cult, denies one or more of the essential doctrines of Christianity. Of the essential doctrines (Jesus is God in flesh, forgiveness of sins is by grace alone, and Jesus rose from the dead physically), Mormonism distorts two of them: the person of Jesus, and His work of salvation.
Mormonism teaches that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones (D. & C. 130:22) and that Jesus is a creation. It teaches that he was begotten in heaven as one of God’s spirit children (See the Book, Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage, p. 8). This is in strict contrast to the biblical teaching that he is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14), eternal (John 1:1, 2, 15), uncreated, yet born on earth (Col. 1:15), and the creator all (John 1:3; Col. 1;16-17). Jesus cannot be both created and not created at the same time. Though Mormonism teaches that Jesus is god in flesh, it teaches that he is "a" god in flesh, one of three gods that comprise the office of the Trinity (Articles of Faith, by Talmage, pp. 35-40). These three gods are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is in direct contradiction of the biblical doctrine that there is only one God (Isaiah 44:6,8; 45:5). See Trinity for a correct discussion of what the Trinity is.
Because Mormonism errors in who Jesus is, salvation (the forgiveness of sins) does not occur and the Mormon is still in his sins. Christians are saved from their sins and judgment by putting their trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins. But, faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed. The Mormon Jesus is not the one of the Bible, even though they call him Jesus, say he died for sins, and was born in Bethlehem. The Mormon Jesus does not exist. It is the nature of Jesus that is the issue. Jesus must be God in flesh, (second person of the Trinity) not "a" god in flesh who is the brother of the devil. He must be uncreated, not created. He must be the creator (Col. 1:16-17). This is who the true Jesus really is: God, creator, uncreated, not the brother of the devil.
Mormon theology teaches that god used to be a man on another planet, that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of that god on that world, and that he brought one of his wives to this world with whom he produces spirit children who then inhabit human bodies at birth. The first spirit child to be born was Jesus. Second was Satan, and then we all followed. The Jesus of Mormonism is definitely not the same Jesus of the Bible. Therefore, faith in the Mormon Jesus, is faith misplaced because the Mormon Jesus doesn't exist.
Mormonism teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross itself (and receiving it by faith) is not sufficient to bring forgiveness of sins. It teaches that the forgiveness of sins is obtained though a cooperative effort with God; that is, we must be good and follow the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church in order to obtain forgiveness. Consider James Talmage, a very important Mormon figure who said, "The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil" (Articles, p. 432), and "Hence the justice of the scriptural doctrine that salvation comes to the individual only through obedience" (Articles, p. 81). This contradicts the biblical doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9) and the doctrine that works are not part of our salvation but a result of them (Rom. 4:5, James 2:14-18).
To further confuse the matter, Mormonism further states that salvation is twofold. It maintains that salvation is both forgiveness of sins and universal resurrection. So when a Mormon speaks of salvation by grace, he is usually referring to universal resurrection. But the Bible speaks of salvation as the forgiveness of sins, not simple universal resurrection. Where Mormonism states that forgiveness of sins is not by faith alone, the Bible does teach it. Which is correct? Obviously, it is the Bible.
Mormonism, to justify its aberrant theology, has undermined the authority and trustworthiness of the Bible. The 8th article of faith from the Mormon Church states, "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly." The interesting thing is that Joseph Smith allegedly corrected the Bible in what is called The Inspired Version, though it is not used by the LDS church. Though they claim they trust the Bible, in reality they do not. They use Mormon presuppositions to interpret it. For example, where the Bible says there are no other gods in the universe (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8), they interpret it to mean "no other gods of this world." They do not trust what it says and they often state that the Bible is not translated correctly. This is what I have encountered numerous times when speaking to Mormons.
Why is Mormonism a non Christian cult? Because it adds works to salvation. It denies that Jesus is the uncreated creator. It alters the biblical teaching of the atonement. It contradicts the Christian teaching of monotheism. It undermines the authority and reliability of the Bible.
I do not deny that Mormons are good people, that they worship "a" god, that they share common words with Christians, that they help their people, and that they do many good things. However, Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23, " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" (NKJV). Becoming a Christian does not mean belonging to a church, doing good things, or simply believing in God. Being a Christian means that you have trusted in the true God for salvation, in the True Jesus -- not the brother of the devil.

...............................................Rob y................................................

Cueball

04-08-2005, 07:38 PM

Larry, I in no way intend to run you off. And to be honest I don't know why you would leave. I have been polite I didn't leave when you gave your view that Mormons were christian I just defended my position on it in what I thought was a civil way. I trully apologize if I offended you.

Matt, the same goes for you I am not offended that you believe one thing. However I feel I have the duty and right to defend my beliefs.

.................................................. ........Roby..................................

WildmanSC

04-08-2005, 07:44 PM

I also thought that the only criteria to be a Christian is to believe with all of your heart that Jesus Christ is your Savior and Lord.

Just because someone believes that doesn't mean that all the secrets and truths within the Bible are revealed to that person all at once.

I also believe that any religion that uses Christianity as a foundation but adds it's own twist to scripture, adds to it or omits certain scripture...is a cult.

I believe anyone belonging to a Christian based religion that believes with all of their heart that Jesus Christ is their Savior and Lord is saved.

We may not agree on specific doctrine or interpretations but that doesn't mean one is saved and the other is not because we disagree....unless it is a disagreement on weither or not Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior.

Agape,

Ray ;)

Ray,

The very foundation of belief in Christ is the belief in who He is, what He did for us and His resurrection. There too often is an easy believism taught/practised. The belief must be based upon the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that the scriptures are true in what they say about Jesus Christ.

To all,

I think Matt is seeking for answers because as he has already stated there are some parts of the Mormon religion he does not understand and with which he is not comfortable. I think we need to encourage him to read the gospels, as he has said he is going to do, and the Book of Romans, as well. I discern that he senses he is missing something in his life, and he is searching for it. We will be able to help him find what is missing if we maintain a discourse with him and pray for him to see the Light. If we run him off, we will have lost the opportunity.

Bill Lamb

Cueball

04-08-2005, 07:54 PM

Let me start out by saying Matt thank your for your interest in this site and our belief system. I had no intention of offending you in any of my post. However there were several other post after yours that were heading in a direction that I felt needed addressing that being that the Mormon faith is christian. In my understanding of the gospels it is not. That is not meant to be offensive it is my belief. Just as I don't find your belief offensive. I hope that you find the answeres to the questions you are seeking. I think that you are dealing with a solid person to get them. If i can ever be of assistance to you in any way please let me know. I just have to stand for my faith as it is not a part of me it is who I am.

.................................................. ........Roby...................................... .

BLACK WOLF

04-08-2005, 09:12 PM

BLACK WOLF

04-08-2005, 09:13 PM

Roby,

I'll read what you shared more in depth and respond later.

Thanks...your bro,

Ray ;)

Bill McNeal

04-09-2005, 05:19 AM

roby,we obviously see things from a different perspective. thats fine with me.
that is also my last post on this or any other post on this forum.
i'll stick with the more mundane things like kids, bows, dogs etc.
sorry i made you uncomfortable.
larry

The Word of God, the TRUTH of the Scripture was not Created to make men happy, or feel comfortable. It was Inspired by God to give Record of Himself, and His Purpose. Just because a man places Biblical Truth above all else does not mean that he is "uncomfortable"

The True Christian is called to rebuke, and expose wolves trying to enter the Flock. Just because many of the sheep will unknowingly invite the wolves in, does not mean that the shepherd takes a break, and lets the wolves in. Satans biggest angle is to try and slip in flock, by pretending he is one of them. And Yes, Satan will also say He "believes" in Jesus. Why wouldn't he???.
Any hunter knows that our prey is much easier taken when it is in a relaxed, unalarmed state.

Satan knows Jesus is real. Satan knows every word of the Bible Jesus wrote. Satan *thinks* that he must first get close the sheep for a kill. What the beast fails to realize is, is that though he my devour the goats among the sheep, the Chosen Sheep are protected from his lies. You see Satan envys Jesus. He wants the respect that Jesus has. This is why Satan , and his children claim that he is the brother of Jesus. Satan seeks to discredit Jesus by lieing, and saying Jesus had sexual relations with human women.

Mormonism is simply one of many satanic venues. There are several, even larger satanic venues that claim themselves to be "Christian" Brothers, I cannot stress enough that this should NOT alarm us. Scripture clearly tells us that the majority of professing Christians will go to hell. (Luke 13:24-30). Let us simply petition God with prayer , and KNOW that the shepherds He appointed among us will fetch the lost sheep out of mormonism, cathosism, and so forth.

Let us know that every lost sheep will be called back to the fold. Take solace in knowing that groups like mormonism will only capture goats. Any Elect among will be rescued, and brought home before the fire desroys their present prison!

Shalom!

WildmanSC

04-09-2005, 08:30 AM

Bill,

I agree the very foundation of belief in Christ is the belief in who He is, what He did for us and His resurrection...hence...Lord and Savior.

The belief must be based upon the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that the scriptures are true in what they say about Jesus Christ...BUT as one believer interprets a verse another believer interprets it differently.

As I said...just because you believe and your heart has been convicted doesn't mean that all the secrets and truths within the Bible are revealed to that person all at once...or do you disagree?

Is a person saved if they believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord?

Is that same person a Christian?

Is that same person not saved because they disagree with your exact interpretaion of the Holy Trinity?

Agape,

Ray ;)

Ray,

While there is much truth in what you say, we must also look at those who are proclaiming "belief in Jesus Christ" and see who they think Jesus Christ is and what their belief system is insofar as salvation is. If you take a close look at some of the Mormon theology, for example, that has been posted, they do not believe in Hell, they believe in three levels of Heaven and that the worst, the murders, the rapists, the adulterers, etc. will go to the third level of Heaven where they will receive glory. Furthermore, the good people of the world will go to the second Heaven where they will receive glory, and finally, people who enter into the everlasting covenant of eternal marriage and live worth of it can gain the 1st. My question is "What is the everlasting covenant of eternal marriage?" It is not from the scriptures. And secondly, "How do you live worthily?" The Bible very clearly tells us that outside of the amazing grace and mercy of God, and the power of the Holy Spirit we cannot even walk the straight and narrow. And we can't even do that until we are born again.

Ray,

For sure when a person is first born again, they do not have command of all the truths of the Bible. They are saved by faith, through grace, and a belief in the Godship, the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and conviction of the fact that they are a wretched vile sinner that deserves to die for their sins. Knowledge of the biblical truths will come as the result of reading and studying the Word and hearing it preached and the Holy Spirit revealing to your heart the truths in the Bible. The Apostle Paul said it well in I Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. That message is the gospel of the Bible and is what is needed to be saved.

I know I've done a bit of rambling, and for that I apologize, but I hope I've made it clear that it is a bit more than a belief in Jesus. Satan believes in Jesus. He knows Jesus lives today and that He won victory over sin, the tomb and death! And for that we can say Halaleuah!!

Bill L

BLACK WOLF

04-09-2005, 09:33 AM

Bill,

Dude...your not rambling...your sharing.

There is a difference in believing in Jesus and believing Jesus is your Lord and Savior.

Satan believes in Jesus, but he doesn't believe in Jesus as his Lord and Savior.

A person, who believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior is a Christian and saved...weither or not he is a non-denominational Christian, a Catholic Christian, a Baptist Christian, a Protestant Christian or a Morman Christian doesn't matter when salvation is considered.

BUT...if they don't believe Jesus is the Word and the Word is God than there probably is a problem, but if they do believe that but disagree with some of us concerning the Holy Trinity than I would have to say our disagreement will not be the main focus in reguards to salvation.

There is only one requirment in the Bible that offers salvation to us and it isn't weither or not you believe in heaven or hell or if you believe in freewill. It is based on weither or not you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

If you don't believe Jesus is your Lord and Savior than the Bible says you are not yet saved.

Is there any other requirment that the Bible mentions that provides salvation other than the one I mentioned?

Agape,

Ray ;)

BLACK WOLF

04-09-2005, 09:55 AM

Roby,

That was a good article and I agree with alot of it...BUT ;) it seems to allow a person to call judgment upon those that disagree with it.

I believe God is the only one, who can pass judgment upon a man's soul and his belief.

I also agree with your statemant about people confessing to believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior, yet show no fruit of their changed life.

Just because we might not be able to see change doesn't mean there hasn't been any. Just because they are not living lives as we believe a good Christian should doesn't mean they are not saved. We are all sinners and we will all continue to sin.

I know plenty of Christians, who still fight with addictions.

Faith without works is dead. It takes work to actively keep your faith alive.

Do you believe a Christian, who backslides, is still saved?

The moment a person dies and what they believe is the determining factor...not what they have done in the past or believed in the past.

A man, who has lived a life of murder, adultry and stealing can be saved at the moment before his death even if he hasn't had the time to study the Bible more thoroughly and learn it's mysteries, if he only believes Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior.

There is no other requirement.

Agape,

Ray ;)

Cueball

04-09-2005, 10:42 AM

Passing judgement is handing down a guilty or not guilty verdict or imposing a penalty or pardon. Ray don't confuse calling a spade a spade with judgement many people get the two confused. I am not passing judgement nor do I think the article was passing judgement you are right that is the work for Jesus not me. However there is nothing judgemental about calling a person that has no evidence of a changed life out on the mat.

What do i believe in context to sin after salvation. I think that it is impossible for a person that is saved to woller in a sinful lifestyle i don't think the Holy Spirit will allow it. I do think a saved person can sin but there is a big difference in the daily battles with the flesh and a total lifestyle of sin. I would have serious reason to question whether that person actually had a true salvation experience.

Also one other point Satan not only knows who Jesus is but the bible tells that he will confess it with his mouth. Every knee will bow every tongue confess.

Salvation is not just having the head knowledge of Jesus being lord and savior and I don't believe that if you confess it with your tongue that gets your ticket punched either. I know to many person myself included who at some point can confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior and not be living it. If you would have asked me at 25 I would have told you Jesus was the son of god who died on the cross for the worlds sins and rose again and sits at the right hand of the father. I also would have told you he was my lord and savior. However I can assure you I was not saved. Ray this is much deeper than that. This is about a condition of the heart and you can not have a personal relationship with Jesus and your life not be changed dramatically.

If you confess Jesus but believe he is the brother of Satan and had sexual relations with a woman like said earlier you don't believe in the Jesus of Gods Word thus you can have no salvation. Thats not judgemental that is fact according to Gods word.

................................................Ro by........................................

BLACK WOLF

04-09-2005, 11:13 AM

Roby,

You said - "Also one other point Satan not only knows who Jesus is but the bible tells that he will confess it with his mouth. Every knee will bow every tongue confess."

You are missing the point...I said that a person becomes saved when they believe Jesus is THEIR Lord and Savior...not if they believe he is the Lord and Savior.

Satan will never confess that Jesus is, was or will be HIS Lord and Savior...there is a difference.

You said - "However there is nothing judgemental about calling a person that has no evidence of a changed life out on the mat."

It's only judgmental if you judge them. Calling them out or questioning them is different than passing judgment. We are told to hold each other accountable, but to condemn someone and say they are not saved because they don't believe exactly as you do is wrong.

There are Biblical guidlines that describe who God is. Here are a few:

Jesus is the only begotten son of God.
The Word is God.
The Word was with God.
Jesus is the Word.
Jesus died for our sins.
Jesus rose from the dead.
Jesus is Lord.
Jesus is the Savior.

How those all work together is a mystery but the important fact is...is that you believe it.

If they disagree with those than I will agree with you ;)

What a man believes today...is not necessarily what he will believe tomorrow.

There are differences in interpretation that is why there are Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, Mormans, etc., etc. are you saying that if they are involved in one or the other that disagrees with your belief, but believe that Jesus is their Lord and Savior with all of their heart that they really aren't saved?

Your bro,

Ray ;)

Cueball

04-09-2005, 12:17 PM

"It's only judgmental if you judge them. Calling them out or questioning them is different than passing judgment. We are told to hold each other accountable, but to condemn someone and say they are not saved because they don't believe exactly as you do is wrong."

Ray, man I can't believe you said that. So if someone says I believe I am saved because I am a good person. According to your statement above if I tell them there not saved I am judging them. Not true I am stating the obvious and Jesus will do the judging. Because that statement is not believing exactly as I do.

Here is where your missing the point it is not what you or I believe it is what Gods word says. If I repeat Gods word than it doesn't make me the judge it makes a repeater of Gods word. If you believe in a Jesus that is not the Jesus of scripture You are not Saved. That is a matter of fact according to God's word not according to Ray or Roby. If there is a problem with repeating Gods word then please explain that to me. According to your thought process we would not be allowed to repeat portions of text due to fear of being judgemental. I think you have become over sensitive to the Political correctness of the day. Look at Paul, Peter and others of the early church reguarly telling believers and non-believers how it is and no fear of being P.C.

.................................................. .....Roby................................

Cueball

04-09-2005, 12:19 PM

You said
"Jesus is the only begotten son of God.
The Word is God.
The Word was with God.
Jesus is the Word.
Jesus died for our sins.
Jesus rose from the dead.
Jesus is Lord.
Jesus is the Savior.

How those all work together is a mystery but the important fact is...is that you believe it.

If they disagree with those than I will agree with you "

Don't forget if they add to it then we shouldn't agree with them.

................................................Ro by.....................................

God's word doesn't need additions which is exactly what the Mormon faith has done and continues to do. That is as bad as leaving parts out.

Bill McNeal

04-09-2005, 03:08 PM

Here is some nice Scriptures.........Gal 1:6-10

***No Other Gospel
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel– which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! ***

Shalom!

BLACK WOLF

04-09-2005, 03:30 PM

Roby,

You said - "So if someone says I believe I am saved because I am a good person. According to your statement above if I tell them there not saved I am judging them."

We first have to keep it within context of the original disagreement ;) but I would agree with you...you are not passing judgment upon them if you are sharing what the Bible says, which says the only way to be saved is by believing Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior. If you add to that...you would be wrong.

Remember...we were originally discussing Christians, who believe Jesus Christ is their Savior and Lord...not non-believers.

I'll re-word the original question...If someone, who believes that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior are they saved if they claim to be Catholic?

Based on what I have researched Catholics also have additions to their belief that aren't included in a non-denominational Christian's belief.

Please show me where in the Bible that states there is more criteria to be met to be saved other than beliveing Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior???

I have also previously stated...if you add or subtract to what the Bible states, you would be wrong.

Your bro,

Ray ;)

Bill McNeal

04-09-2005, 03:43 PM

"""Please show me where in the Bible that states there is more criteria to be met to be saved other than beliveing Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior???"""

Gal 1:9

***If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! ***

Bill McNeal

04-09-2005, 03:58 PM

2Cor 11:3-4

***But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.***

2Cor 11:13-15

***For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.***

_____________________
***All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.***

BLACK WOLF

04-09-2005, 06:21 PM

Gal 1...No Other Gospel...

In context...Some people were preaching "a different gospel". They were teaching in order to be saved, people had to follow Jewish laws and customs, especially the practice of circumcision. Faith in Christ was not enough. That message undermined the truth concerning salvation, which is a gift from God and not a reward for doing good deeds. Jesus has made the gift available to everyone, not just the Jews.

When we set up additional requirements for salvation, we deny the power of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

The simplicity is this...believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and you will be saved.

So is anyone going to tackle my question with a direct yes or no?

Is someone, who believes that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior, saved even if they claim to be Catholic? How about Protestant...and Baptist...and Lutheran...and Mormon?

There are quite a few things I disagree with concerning the Morman religion and others, but that doesn't necessarily make me believe that some are not saved.

Agape,

Ray ;)

Bill McNeal

04-09-2005, 07:12 PM

"""Is someone, who believes that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior, saved even if they claim to be Catholic? How about Protestant...and Baptist...and Lutheran...and Mormon?

There are quite a few things I disagree with concerning the Morman religion and others, but that doesn't necessarily make me believe that some are not saved."""

***For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.***

Bill McNeal

04-09-2005, 07:32 PM

***O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.***

Bill McNeal

04-09-2005, 07:42 PM

Colossians 2:8

***Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.***

Cueball

04-09-2005, 09:59 PM

I think were on the same page in our belief of what it takes to be saved. Jesus Jesus Jesus. However correct me if I am wrong but the orginal discussion was about the Mormon church believing in a different Jesus than the one in the bible. They have munipulated scripture and add teachings about Jesus that can not be documented in the King James Version of the bible. So I said if you are believing in that Jesus your not saved. I think you then accused me of being judgemental and I just don't see that as judgemental. Honestly I see that as being honest and caring for a soul who is mislead by man made doctrine that is not biblical. Now if you believe in anything other than the Jesus of the bible the fact is your not saved. That doesn't mean I am making the judgement your not saved the bible clearly teaches there is only one way and that is Jesus. If you have reinvented the person of Jesus to fit your mold then it is not Jesus. Does any of this make sense.

.................................................. ............Roby..............................

Yes I believe Catholics, and many other denominations including a Mormon can be saved. However it is very unlikely if the Jesus that some denominations believe in is made up to be an adulter and brother of Satan.

Matt

04-09-2005, 10:53 PM

I've been read bit and pieces of this "discussion". Since it seems to have been inspired by and involves my faith I guess I should respond.

Cueball, I understand that you beleive I'm in a cult. But thanks for remaining respectful (at least in the posts I read).

Black Wolf, You seem not to be judging my soul (again from the posts I read). I also appreciate that.

Bill M, I've blocked out your posts. So I have no idea what your saying. I figure I'm not missing much.

Everybody else, Thanks for being gracious and accomodating to me.

But to all, whether I go to Hell or not is between me and God. You can think what ever you want to think. But the fact of the matter you don't know what God's going to do with me. You just have an idea. He knows my heart and you don't. So unless you have the power to cast me to hell or give me peace in heaven, I'd appreciate it if you quit condemning my soul and worry about your own. I'm not trying to sound harse, and I apologize if my post sounds abraisive. But to put it plainly my soul is non of your concern. I'll go now so you can resume saying how Christian and saved you are while everyone else is burning in hell. This as been a learning expierience for me. One I'll never forget.

P.S. I know, my spelling is awful.

Cueball

04-10-2005, 11:09 AM

I have to tried to show you and everyone else respect. However the discussion is much larger than you or me for that matter. Your relationship is your buisness and not mine so please understand I am not trying to get in your buisness. However I do feel I have like all christian been called to care about a lost and dying world. That means if you like it or not I do care about your soul along with all others that I come in contact with. It is my nature to care. I want try to push you into my faith but when asked or if there is a open discussion I will speak the truth (hopefully in love as scripture commands). In addition I feel it is important to point out the major differences in my faith and others as there are many who watch but don't post. So I don't want any confussion on where I stand and what I believe.

.................................................. ........Roby...................................... ...

BLACK WOLF

04-10-2005, 11:39 AM

Cueball,

I understand where you are coming from and I was concerned that this might happen.

I completely believe you were trying to be gracious, respectful and loving with everything you shared, but I believe there is a better way to say things and let the power of Jesus Christ convict their hearts with the truth than what was being expressed and shared with Matt or anyone else from a different religion here lately.

I know most of us, if not all of us, mean well, but we can sometimes come across judgmental even if we are not trying to.

When we set up additional requirements for salvation, we deny the power of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

It sounded like Matt was a seeker and I have faith that if he continues seeking Jesus he will learn more and more about who He is, was and will be...just as I am.

Agape,

Ray ;)

Cueball

04-10-2005, 11:54 AM

If someone is a seeker than they have to understand there is going to be differences in their point of view. I can only try to imagine how Jesus would have handled things. I don't see him being P.C. I see him speaking the truth and I think that is all that I have done. When someone came to Jesus with a heart of repentance he came with love. When someone came with aggrogance he hit em between the eyes. When someone came as a seeker he told them the truth.

I really don't see how telling the truth can be harmful. I didn't show a lack of respect if I did please show me where. I spoke the truth. If you were lost and missing the whole boat wouldn't you need someone to tell you the truth. Or would you need someone to sugar coat things and say well maybe your right and maybe there can be more than one truth. The gospel as it stands is very confrontational there is no middle ground there is one way and one way only according to Gods word. I think all I did was bring the truth on this subject. If Matt has chosen to leave over hearing different views than his than he was not a true seeker of the truth. Some seek acceptance of their version of the truth and as believers we are command to speak the truth in love.

.................................................. .....Roby........................................

WildmanSC

04-10-2005, 12:08 PM

"The simplicity is this...believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and you will be saved."

Ray,

Let me answer it as simply as I can with the scriptures.

Rom 10:9-10 & 13 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The difference between being saved and being lost is approximately 18 inches. That is the distance from the head to the heart. People who grew up in my era and attended even public schools in the early to late 1950s heard prayer, the Christmas story, the Easter story (of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, NOT the easter bunny!!) and had a head knowledge of Jesus Christ, believed in or had an intellectual understanding of the crucified and risen Saviour Jesus Christ. But that intellectual belief does not save. That is the belief that Satan has. He KNOWS Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He was crucified, buried and rose again on the third day, but he will never acknowledge it. It is his goal to keep humanity believing it in their minds rather than in their hearts.

Another element that must be considered is take a look at what a "religion" believes is required to go to Heaven. If it is anything other than salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, then that religion can state a belief in Jesus Christ, but at the same time they deny Him because their means of going to Heaven is something other than an experiential relationship with Jesus Christ.

Bill L

BLACK WOLF

04-10-2005, 12:43 PM

Cueball,

I am not by any means saying that a Mormon's belief maybe right...if that is how you are reading me than I'm not doing a good enough job conveying it to you or you just can't see it.

There is nothing wrong with telling the truth, accept when the listener denies it. It is one thing to tell the truth and it is another to pass judgment.

I don't beleieve you were trying to pass judgment...based on what little I know of you...you don't seem to be that kind of person...but the verses you chose and the personal words you used conveyed that you could be to some people.

Again where does it say there are any other requirements that need to be fullfilled other than believeing in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord?

When we set up additional requirements for salvation, we deny the power of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

So you don't think you could have said or handled this differently other than how you already did?

I just ask that you pray about it if you already haven't, and if you come to the conclusion you did nothing wrong or couldn't have handled it any differently than I will let it rest.

Your bro,

Ray ;)

BLACK WOLF

04-10-2005, 12:52 PM

Bill L,

I didn't know that was a question ;)

If you re-read my posts I had also mentioned that salvation comes from believing within all of your heart. If for some reason it wasn't mentioned, I'm sorry...I meant to include it.

If a person truly believes that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, His power will convict them...one way or another.

Your bro,

Ray ;)

Bill McNeal

04-10-2005, 12:57 PM

***Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?***

God can fix it, and give them a heart that believes in Him.........

***Jeremiah 24:7
And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.***

Salvation is from Gods Will and desire, not ours..........

Romans 9:16-18
***So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.***

With His Word, we can now believe Him, with the Hearts He gave us........

***Romans 10: 8-10

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.***

Cueball

04-10-2005, 01:03 PM

You said
"Again where does it say there are any other requirements that need to be fullfilled other than believeing in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord?"

Nowhere. However like I have stated several times belief in a Jesus that is not the Jesus of the bible is liking believing in the Easter Bunny. I know you don't believe in the beliefs of the Mormon church but the fact remains they don't believe in the Jesus that we do. They believe he had sex with women and is the brother of Satan. Belief in that Jesus will not get you to heaven and that is not me judging that is Gods word.

You also said and asked
"When we set up additional requirements for salvation, we deny the power of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

So you don't think you could have said or handled this differently other than how you already did?"

Nowhere have I added to the requirements of salvation but lets be clear believing in a Jesus that had sex with women and is the brother of Satan does not in any way fill the only requirement to get to heaven. That person is believing in a made up person like the Easter Bunny. There was never a Jesus that had sex and was the brother of Satan. So if someone believes that then they don't believe in the Jesus of Gods Word there by not meeting the only requirement for salvation.

I am quite sure I might could have handled things different. But to be honest I don't think your approach of calling out a christian brother over simply stating the truth of God's word is the correct way either.

So let me summarize: If you can show me one thing I have said that is not scriptural or where I have shown hate, or pass judgement or shown a lack of respect for anyone on this site than I will most assuredly apologize in an instant. I just see the truth and don't understand why a brother in Christ like yourself is struggling so much with the truth being told especially if it is not in a disrepectful manner.

.................................................. ........Roby..................................

BLACK WOLF

04-10-2005, 01:21 PM

Roby,

Believe me...I understand.

Let me ask you this and maybe it will come clear.

Why stop there...what about the different beliefs concerning the Holy Trinity?

What if someone believes almost exactly as you do concening Jesus, but differs slightly concerning the Trinity...what than?

If the 2 of you believe even the slightest bit differently concerning who God is based on the mystery of the Holy Trinity, you are in essence believing in 2 different Jesus' as you have put it.

Is he damned or is he saved and has yet to learn more about the true idenity of God?

Is a person damned because he has yet to learn EVERYTHING about the true nature of God, even if they believe in all of their heart that Jesus is their Lord and Savior?

Ray ;)

Cueball

04-10-2005, 01:44 PM

Huge difference in the Trinity and Who Was Jesus? Per your own post the only requirement for salvation is accepting Jesus Christ as your lord. So it only stands to reason that it might be very very very important to know who Jesus is and who he was. The trinity is not a requirement of salvation nor more than election or selection is. We can discuss all topics and have many different views on many subjects but there is no room for error in faith in christ. Hence it becomes the most important topic we can discuss if someone thinks Jesus had sex with a woman and was also the brother of Satan. This means that they don't know who Jesus is and if you don't know Jesus according to God's word your going to Hell.

Once again this is the truth with no room for interpitation.

.................................................. .Roby............................................

Ray surely you can see the difference.

Cueball

04-10-2005, 01:47 PM

You asked?
"Is a person damned because he has yet to learn EVERYTHING about the true nature of God, even if they believe in all of their heart that Jesus is their Lord and Savior?"

The answer is no. However if one of the things they have yet to learn is who Jesus is and who Jesus was then the bible says they are damned because you can not accept Jesus as your Savior if you have no idea of who he is much less making up a pretend Jesus of your liking.

.................................................. .Roby.............................................

BLACK WOLF

04-10-2005, 01:58 PM

Roby,

To God...a sin is a sin.

In reality a difference is a difference.

If you believe differently concerning the Holy Trinity and how it describes God, there is still a difference...therefore the God you believe in is different than the God they believe in...even if it seems little.

As long as you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior you will be saved and the truth of all things will be revealed to you all within God's perfect timing.

I have faith in my Lord Jesus Christ to keep His word that those who seek will find and my prayer is that Matt continues seeking God and keeps his heart, eyes, mind and ears open to the truth as it is shared with him.

Your bro,

Ray ;)

Bill McNeal

04-10-2005, 02:26 PM

"""If you believe differently concerning the Holy Trinity and how it describes God, there is still a difference...therefore the God you believe in is different than the God they believe in...even if it seems little."""

The "holy trinity" is not Biblical doctrine. Our Doctrine lies within the Scriptures

***Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.***

***Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;***

***1 Timothy 6:1
Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.***

***2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:***

Cueball

04-10-2005, 02:33 PM

Ray, I think your streching things to say a difference in the Holy Trinity is the same as adding text to the bible like saying Jesus had sex with a woman and that he is the brother of Satan. If two believers have a difference in their viewing of the word but are bothing looking in the word then I think any reasonable person can see that. However if someone is having a difference in who the savior of mankind is and they are basing their views from the teachings of a Man Joseph Smith whos tract record is shaky to say the least.

This is my last post on this topic but I think (hope) you know that searching for the answer is not good enough. I also think (hope) you know that the Mormon Churches view on Jesus is twisted and as others have said is a lie straight from Satan.

I like you hope Matt and all other seekers find the truth. However they will never find the truth if we are luke warm christians and don't show them the truth as it is presented in God's word. This is not about a group hug at the end of the thread we are speaking of persons eternal salvation or damnation and I would think (hope) that you and all my christians brothers know the only hope is the truth according to God's word. One of the biggest problems with the church today is the watering down (feel good) messages being taught.

Gods word = Truth
I can't understand why we as believers would bring anything other than the truth.
For us to bring something beside the truth is saying that Gods truth is not sensitive enough to those seeking. God's word is not modern enough for persons of todays time who need to feel good. God word needs nothing it stands on its own it doesn't need Roby or Ray or anyone else to change it just a bit to make it work better. And to be honest if we stand by and say that a person who believes in a Jesus that the have made the brother of Satan and slept with a woman we are failing miserably as defenders of God's word.

We can't bend the truth even a little bit even if it does make people feel good and increase our numbers here on this site. I hope this site grows beyond belief but if we have to censor the truth to see that growth than I can't count myself among its numbers.

.............................................Roby. ...................................

BLACK WOLF

04-10-2005, 02:39 PM

It's not about censorship...it's about knowing when and which verse is the right one at the right time.

I for one don't always get it right, but I'm working at at ;)

Your bro,

Ray ;)

Bill McNeal

04-10-2005, 03:22 PM

WildmanSC

04-11-2005, 11:48 AM

It's not about censorship...it's about knowing when and which verse is the right one at the right time.

I for one don't always get it right, but I'm working at at ;)

Your bro,

Ray ;)

Ray,

The important thing is to know from which book the verse was taken. If it is taken in context out of the Holy Bible, you can bank on it. If it comes out of the Book of Mormon, the Koran, or any other book of man that is purported to be "Holy", it is not worth the paper on which it is printed.

If you will go back and carefully read some of the quotes that have been posted as doctrine from the book of Mormon, for example, you will find that to go to one of their three heavens, there is no mention whatsoever of Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Rather, there is mentioned "...people who enter into the everlasting covenant of eternal marriage and live worthy of it can gain the 1st heaven." Secondly, "...the good people of the world will go to the second Heaven where they will receive glory." And finally, "...the worst, the murders, the rapists, the adulterers, etc. will go to the third level of Heaven where they will receive glory." The statement was even made that "...99.5% of all humans will not be cast into the fiery pit of Hell with Satan."

These are totally unscriptural statements and when I see someone post such statements, even though he claims to believe in Christ, as Roby succinctly stated, in which Christ does he believe? Is it the "Jesus who is the brother of Satan, both fathered by God the Father AS WERE WE!!! Then we made it from the first estate to the second estate, or life here on earth, and if we meet the parameters given above, we will make it to the third estate at the 1st heaven, the 2nd heaven or the 3rd heaven."

Ray,

I must ask you, what scriptures have you read that discuss anything listed in the last two paragraphs? Even though the Mormons state they believe in the KJV Holy Bible, if you have noted their very snazy advertising, you will recall that the Holy Bible appears on the screen and then it fades away and is replaced by the Book of Mormon. Their doctrines comes from the Book of Mormon and not the Holy Bible. The Jesus they "believe in" is not the Jesus of the Holy Bible who died on the cross of Calvary. Belief in their Jesus, the brother of Satan, can't possibly save anyone, nor do they even state it to be a requirement.

It is easy to participate in a forum or discussion and say "Oh, I believe what you believe." It is a totally different matter to have experienced the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that brings conviction to one's heart that you are a wretched vile sinner, also brings conviction that there is hope through the precious blood of Jesus, that if you believe in His death, burial and resurrection, confess with your mouth and repent of your sins and that you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead and ask Jesus Christ to come into your heart and life and be your personal Saviour, thou shalt be saved, thou shalt have eternal, everlasting life! :amen: :amen:

Bill L

BLACK WOLF

04-11-2005, 12:45 PM

Camp Cook

04-11-2005, 03:54 PM

As I read all the posts, I think you are all closer in agreement then in disagreement. I think we all tend to read more into the words we write then we would if we were sitting down across from each other having a conversation. with the written word we get alot of "are you saying" & "did you mean".

With that being said....

I have a friend who prayed to receive Christ when she was 14. Over the next 20+ years, she was in & out of church, she married, had children etc. (let me ad that during this time they met alot of people who claimed to be christians who did not live the life, hence alot of disillusionment) We became friends about 8 or so years ago. As our friendship grew, she & her husband began to see a difference in us & came to realize the diffence was the love of Christ in us. When she told me she had prayed to receive Christ earlier, it was not my place to judge whether or not she meant it but to let the Holy Spirit do His work. I encouraged her to read the book of John and it wasn't long until she realized what (Who) she was missing in her life. It will soom be 3 years & it amazes me the work that God has done in her life in such a short time. She has told me that had I told her outright that she was in no way a christian & told her she was going to hell...she would have walked away. Basically, who the ___ did I think I was..... What I did tell her was that I could not see her heart & that she needed to find her own peace with God through getting into His word.

I know of another man who is a member of the Catholic Church, yet claims and appears to be a born again believer. How he could be & yet remain attending a Catholic Church is beyond my comprehension....so I asked. to him it was very simple...he feels this is the mission field God has given him & that he will reach more catholics with the love of Christ by remaining in the church then by leaving. It is not my place to tell him that he is mistaken any more then it would be someone else's to say that Lee & I missing church on Sunday morning that we might minister through the archery ministry God has given us was wrong.

Just some food for thought.

larry

04-11-2005, 03:56 PM

Ray, I'm not sure what your reading, I read nothing that Bill wrote that could be interpreted as such.

tell me, how do you interpret the following vs.

Matt 7;21-23 Not everyone who says to Me," Lord Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord Lord have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness! "

larry

WildmanSC

04-11-2005, 04:56 PM

Bill L,

So are you saying you don't trust the power of Jesus Christ to convict someone, who has chosen to believe in Him as their Savior and Lord even if you disagree with some of the things they also believe in?

I have faith in my Lord Jesus Christ that if a person truly believes with all of their heart that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, the truth of all things will eventually be shared with that person.

Agape,

Ray ;)

Ray,

Brother, I'm not sure where to start. Let me start by saying it is the Holy Spirit that brings conviction to the hearts of men and women, boys and girls, that Jesus Christ is the risen Lord and Saviour. And it is the Holy Spirit that brings conviction to their hearts that they are sinners (Rom 3:23), who deserve to die for their sins (Rom 6:23), but Jesus Christ has already died and paid the price (John 3:16, Rom 2:9, I Cor 8:11, I Cor 15:3) and if we confess and repent believing in our hearts that God raised Christ from the dead we shall be saved (Acts 20:21, Rom 10:9-10, 2 Pet 3:9, I John 1:6-9).

I'm not going to repeat in its entirety what I have already stated about other religions in total. But clearly, what divides all other religions from Christianity is what they do with and how they view Jesus Christ. If they don't see Him as the Son of God and the Lord and Saviour, then they cannot possibly get saved. If they instead see Him as just one of 25 prophets (Islamic religion), or if they see Him as the brother of Satan, both fathered by God the Father, then the Jesus they see is NOT the Jesus of the Holy Bible. Jesus Christ must be seen and believed in the fullness and context of the holy scriptures from the Holy Bible, or the belief is in vain.

Bill Lamb

BLACK WOLF

04-11-2005, 07:16 PM

Camp Cook,

Again you have expressed more eloquantly what I have been trying to express....thanks!

Agape,

Ray ;)

Camp Cook

04-11-2005, 08:26 PM

I think it is very important when God brings someone across our path that we pray for discernment as to where they are spiritually. I usually try to find some common ground & go from there. It has also been my experience that a relationship needs to form. I have found our country to be so "religiousized". When I was a kid, we did alot of evangelizing by knocking on doors, passing out tracts, witnessing to complete strangers. It is my personal experience that more people come to Christ today because some one cared enough to spend time with them, get to know them and answer their questions as they came up. I am not saying the old ways do not work. God moves in the hearts of people. But I am saying in general that the "public" has been disillusioned by the church & christians. How sad.

When I am sharing with someone, I think it is important to let them know that God will meet them where they are. They don't need to clean up before they come to Christ. They need to come to Christ & let Him take care of the cleaning up. We are never worthy enough. I can't start telling them all the things that are wrong in their life or in their belief system because they will just reciprocate. I can tell them what I believe through scripture & why.

I have another dear friend who is only 3 years old in the Lord. He is still, in many ways, a babe in CHrist. He & I have discussed the Trinity again & again for the past 2 years & it is still very difficult for him to grasp. Another very dear christian friend is very concerned as to whether or not my first friend is truly saved because of his "position" on the Trinity. But I have seen how God has worked over the last 3 years, how he has grown in the Lord. THere is no doubt in my mind that if he died tonight, he would wake up in heaven. As he continues to spend time in the Word & to study, the Holy Spirit will bring the understanding.

BLACK WOLF

04-11-2005, 08:30 PM

Camp Cook,

Dang girl...ya did it again...from now on if I have a thought I want to convey...I'm just going to ask you to speak for me ;)

Your little bro ;)

Ray ;)

Camp Cook

04-12-2005, 08:33 PM

That's ok Ray....I probably have a few (+++++) more years practice at talking then you do. :) :)

BLACK WOLF

04-12-2005, 09:40 PM

I heard women on average speak an extra 20,000 more words daily than what guys do.

Raising a 17yrs. old daughter...I would have to agree for as much time as she spends talking on the phone ;)

Ray ;)

WildmanSC

04-13-2005, 11:01 AM

To Whom It May Concern,

When I see a post that looks strangely similar to the posts of someone that I've put on my Ignore List, I add the posters new name to my Ignore List, too.

Bill L

bluej1165

04-14-2005, 08:30 PM

It is nice to know you have christian brothers that believe in the same GOD that you do. Right now I have a hard time with the fellowship I once had. I am so excited about this site I have found. Your faith encourages me, and I hope my faith encourages you as well.

Esquire

04-14-2005, 08:32 PM

Good to have you joining us, friend. Put your feet up and make yourself at home!

WildmanSC

04-15-2005, 10:39 AM

bluej,

Welcome to the forum. May the Lord richly bless your participation here.

Bill

WildmanSC

04-21-2005, 01:49 PM

Troy,

Very well stated. As you noted, most of what you said has been stated in some of the other pages, but not necessarily in the same exact terminology. It is great to have another Christian who knows how you can be sure your are born again posting in the forum. Welcome!!

Bill

webrehm

08-01-2005, 10:41 PM

I haven't looked at this Christian site much, but I am glad to see the scriptures being used as the basis for truth and reality. I recently moved to austin and in looking for a Church I found lots of psychology passing for bible sermons. 1 or 2 verses of scripture and then 30+ minutes of psychology and impressive oratory. Fortunatley I found a well balanced church that teaches the bible, has freedom in worship, and down to earth people that are not putting God into an evangelical or charismatic or pentecostal box. And I have experienced the common God boxes in all three and don't like any of those boxes.

Christians and non christians everywhere believe all sorts of things which they think are in the bible. But since most christians know so little of the bible, they are easily deceived. I really support those who liberally quote the bible and let their words be judged by others.
In this country it is often not PC to have lively spiritual discussions. I say let all attempt to give sound reason for the hope that is within them. If our beliefs do not stand well to scripture then we should have others help us see it.

Dennis

DaveHawk

08-28-2005, 05:20 PM

I have have a good friend how lives in austin their a strong Christian family I have known for 28 years. If you would like I can ask them what chruch they attend. ?

K31Scout

12-28-2005, 06:03 PM

Nice to see the fellowship here. I just bought a quarf and found Trad Talk all in a week!

I have not read this posting completely but think you need to really "believe" with all your heart in Jesus Christ as your savior.

Even Satan believes in God and Jesus, he just dosen't believe the saving part.

Billy

Esquire

12-28-2005, 08:07 PM

Billy,

Sounds like a good week! Welcome to Tradtalk and this forum...

Mike

Snag

12-30-2005, 02:20 PM

His Word says the tongue is the most evil part of our body. We are to be mindful of our thoughts, actions, and words. Being Christ-like is terribly hard for us sinful humans...be vigilante.

Beagle

01-02-2007, 06:02 AM

I've read several of the posts here and have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion. There will always be disagreement when it comes to denominations, religions,salvation, interpretations of God's Word, etc... When I find myself confused or unsure of what is truth, I call upon the name of the Lord for guidence and direction, and guess what--he hears me, and he will hear you. I feel great comfort in that. Many of the Bible's mysteries will not be solved by feeble minds in this world. Listen to your heart, as God speaks to you and through you.

God Bless

redrider86401

04-06-2007, 01:06 AM

1 corinthians 4:7 sez it all , anything i have that is good in me is a gift from GOD ! nothing is from me alone ! i wish all of you read and believe john 1:14 and may the grace and peace of our LORD JESUS CHRIST keep you and protect you for all the days of your life ! he is who he said he is - and he is alive because i spoke ti him this morning !

love in CHRIST JESUS
jim
:thankyou: JESUS

scotty

09-08-2007, 12:31 PM

...

dopar66

09-11-2007, 12:11 PM

Howdy, fellers.
Just joined TradTalk 38 seconds ago. I found the site looking up how to make a decent recurve out of a compound riser.... what are the odds? Then lo and behold I spy the Christian Fellowship Forum! This place ROCKS!
I felt obligated to post, since this has been one of those weeks where a fella just feels like he's been blessed pressed down, shaken together, and overflowing. This past Sunday, a guy in my home church started a small fellowship group for bowhunters. That was some kind of good to me!

A little about me: I'm an Ephesians 5:19-20 kind of guy. I just can't tell enough folks how good the LORD has been to me. On November 27, 1987 I accepted Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. I've felt His presence with me ever since, in everything I do.

It's awesome to be a part of another group of Christian bowhunting, bowbuilding, bowshooting guys and gals. I'll try not to be as talkative as I am on other forums, but it's great to be here!

God Bless!

Esquire

09-12-2007, 08:27 PM

Welcome to the forum! We can be a little slow on the uptake at times, especially during the hunting season. But you'll find much to like around here.

Mike

Sam Dunham

11-13-2007, 12:58 AM

HEY Wildman you were nice to me over on the stickbow, Thanks because the other guys were hacking me up over my metal risered demon. I would like to tell you that my father was a paster in St. David Arizona years ago when I was a kid. St. David was and is predominantly Mormans, anyway people who turned out to be totally wrong told him the Mormans would be mean to us. That was bad information, I thrived amongest them because they were very good to me. They taught me piano free because the teacher was a Morman who found out I might play in our Southern Baptist church. I played basketball and always started on the five because the Morman Basketball couch said I deserved it because I was a good player. Bottom line. I don't care if you are a morman I just thrived as a Baptist amongest em and expect the same will apply here. P.S I also went on to work as a sheriff's deputy in Cochise county for a Morman Sheriff, whos daughter was my spanish teacher in elementry. had some pull because I loved her as a teacher.

Sam Dunham

11-22-2007, 07:57 PM

OK Fellas, I get it

Brokenbow

11-26-2007, 08:42 PM

I have been troubled for a long time about one aspect of Christianity, When you say "Jesus is the Lord" and jet the Bible says in the only Words that God had written in Stone ( I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD and You should have NO OTHER GODS BESIDES ME) therefore how can anyone believe that Jesus is the Lord?

Sam Dunham

12-11-2007, 04:56 PM

Do you gent's ever talk here? I posted long time ago, nobody on. Sam out

Sam Dunham

12-11-2007, 05:08 PM

Brokenbow, my knowlege is limited on theology, doctrine and commentary type definitions to bible questions, but as a lay person I'll try to ansewer in conscious, your question. The way I think the bible explains it, is in a Trinity. A network of one God, one son(Jesus Christ) and the holy spirit. Three are in one, which make up GOD. Now I know all three are referred to in the Old Testament, and the New. Which is the Old covenant and the New one. I know that the Ten commandments were given, I know that Christ said" I did not come to abolish the law or the prophet's but to fulfill". So- I do not believe that-by bible grammatics God was speaking about not worshipping his Son, through the Holy spirit, which Christ made availiable to "Believers" upon his ascention, after his death and ressurrection. Sam out

INHIMWELIVE

02-04-2008, 07:58 AM

If I may jump in Jesus and the father are one... In John 1-1 It says In the beginning was the Word(the Word here refers to Jesus) and the word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him and apart from him nothing came into being..... If you go to Genesis 1-26 It says let us make man in OUR image. So when God created us we were created in the image of the Father, Son and Holy spirit.

Brokenbow

02-09-2008, 10:48 PM

So when You say ,God says let US make Man in Our Image, that would mean that there is more then one God,Or am i not reading this right?

Esquire

02-10-2008, 05:06 AM

Brokenbow,

That is not what that means.

There is only One God. His nature is such that he consists of 3 persons. Each person is separate, distinct from and eternally co-existent with each other, and together they comprise One God.

Mike

INHIMWELIVE

02-10-2008, 10:55 AM

It is one God in 3 parts.. Christ said if you have seen me you have seen the father.. However when he was baptized by John the father said from heaven, this is my son in whom I am well pleased. At the same time the holy spirit decended on him in the form of a dove... As humans we are created in Gods image. We have a body, soul and spirit. 3 Parts but all the same being..

Brokenbow

02-10-2008, 08:08 PM

I am not trying to be negative here but i just dont understand why in the first of the 10 Comandment where GOD said You should have no other GODs beside me,that he did not mention the Trinety,is this something he said later or is it something someone else said later?
I am realy confused here.
Again i am sorry if this sounds negative but i am just trying to learn.

Esquire

02-10-2008, 08:33 PM

It's definitely not negative to ask questions. I don't believe that the word "trinity" appears in the Bible. It's a word used to describe the reality of who God is, as revealed through scripture. His nature is triune, but we can avoid that word and maybe it's good to do so, sometimes. Words can become jargon, but words also mean things. The main thing is to try and get at the meaning behind that word trinity, because it reveals something true about God's nature.

Make any sense?

Esquire

02-10-2008, 08:38 PM

Here's a cut and paste from one of my posts on another thread some time back. None of my thoughts are original, they simply express the scriptural understanding held by the Church for centuries.

The word "Trinity" is a combination of 2 words, tri and unity. There are 3 basic concepts to remember: (1) there is one eternal God; (2) God is the Father and the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit; (3) the Father; the Son, and the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct persons who exist at the same time.

We believe the Triune God is the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:19 - 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,).

God is the Father - There is a person called the Father who is also called God - (2 peter 1:17 - 17For he... [Jesus] received honor and glory from God the Father)

And the Son - There is a person called the Son, or Jesus, who is also called God - The apostle Thomas, after seeing the resurrected Jesus, said to him, "My Lord and My God!" (John 20:28)

And the Holy Spirit - There is a person called the Holy Spirit, who is also equated with God - In Acts 5:3-4 the Apostle Peter rebukes a man named Ananias, saying that he has lied to the Holy Spirit. Peter then continues his rebuke: "You have not lied to men, but to God." So lying to the Holy Spirit is the same as lying to God.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct persons - personal beings who possess will, intelligence, and emotion - who exist at the same time. The Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit. Each one has an identity, although the 3 are in complete and perfect unity as the one God.

Mike

Arrow4Christ

02-10-2008, 08:44 PM

I don't think we'll ever fully understand the "trinity" or fully understand God. If you think about it, if we could fully understand Him, He'd be a pretty small God. If our finite minds could totally grasp the Lord's infinite wonder, he wouldn't be so wonderful.
The Father, Son, and Spirit are all equally important. Esquire's last post summed it up about as good as you can.
God bless,
Craig

INHIMWELIVE

02-11-2008, 07:59 AM

I'm sorry to disagree here because Brokenbow is trying to learn here.. But I do have to strongly disagree with your statement esquire. "The Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit." Maybe you didnt mean it this way but that statement actually denies the reality of the trinity. Christ said If you have seen me you have seen the father.. One of the very things the Pharisees called blasphemy was Christs stating he was "I AM" they new this identified him as the father... In John 6:30 Christ states I and the father are one... In John 14 9-10 Christ states he who has seen me has seen the father, how can you say show us the father? Do you not believe that I am in the father and the father in me? Christ is the father,son and the holy spirit.. I have used this example in messages before ... If I take a bar of gold and split it into 3 parts.. Each part has the same characteristics as the other part..

Esquire

02-11-2008, 03:38 PM

You are right, of course. You are making an important distinction and it turns out I phrased that sentence awkwardly.

I should have perhaps have said ""The Father is uniquely distinct from the Son, the Father is uniquely distinct from the Holy Spirit, and the Son is is uniquely distinct from the Holy Spirit."

That sentence, clarified by the rest of my post, perhaps provides a more orthodox description of that which is so difficult to define!

Sam Dunham

11-21-2008, 06:52 PM

God is one entity, He is the Boss. Christ is his Son, and second in command. The Holy Spirit is the language expert that translates our prayers to Christ. The "Conduet" The phone line, so to speak. He is the light projected upon us.Christ took over the hard task to save us because we could not live by the law. Call upon him in prayer through the Holy spirit, He hears. Hard to explain, but Esquire"s description is completely accurate.

Flatbow1

11-10-2009, 05:59 PM

We have all fallen short of the mark...the Cross of Christ.
There is absolute truth ,no doubt, but I'm trying to learn to disagree with someone but still show compassion for them[ I dont always do a good job of that]. I'm so glad that my goodness is not what saves me...but only the Cross. If any faith organization takes away from who Christ is [ God incarnate] I believe it is a false faith.
But, I would support anyones right to worship in any form[ providing that religion doesn't call for violent crimes]....part of the trade off to live in a free country is the fact that we will hear other beliefs that we dont agree with.
Doesn't mean that I believe that they're all on the right road, but Christianity cannot be forced on anyone...Jesus never manipulated anyone to follow him.
Biblical truth is always the truth , not because we choose to believe it but because it was absolute truth all along.

I'm thankfull we have the priviledge to have access to this Forum. Thanks for the priviledge. God bless.

bbaker

07-18-2010, 07:01 PM

I believe that your personal relationship with God is of utmost importance. I find that the Bible is translated by different preachers and scholars to the point of contradiction. Churches of different denominations have different beliefs and different interpretations of the same Bible. Thusly, if you have your own personal relationship and you have been saved I believe all is good.

Leikela

03-22-2011, 02:56 PM

I think there must be some flexibility in how a person "sees" Jesus that will permit their salvation regardless. You hear amazing stories from ex-atheists or people of other religions who reach a point in their life where they literally fall on their knees and pray to God for help, and His spirit enters them, and from that moment on they know that He is God and they are saved. Clearly, these people do not have a large theological knowledge of Jesus, other than that a lot of people believe in him, and they would not be able to differentiate between "one Jesus and another", but because they gave their hearts to Him, they nonetheless received the grace of His salvation.

And Cueball, what you say about "seeing Jesus" in the lives of people has merit, but not in the way you necessarily think. There are some sects of Christianity that believe that you must do "good works" in order to attain salvation. Obviously, this is fallacious --- Jesus is the only way to salvation, and your acceptance of Him is enough. However, works are important because they are your fulfillment of the charge Jesus gave you --- to love one another. If you do not seek to change your own sinful behavior, then you are not growing in God, and if you bypass opportunities to do good, then you are rejecting God's commandment. You cannot "accept" Jesus but reject his instructions. That is the catch.

There is a passage in the Bible (I Corinthians 3:10) that I believe refers well to this. Paul says, "According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

This says that God will basically test you on the Day of Judgement to see how well you have built on his foundation --- are your works of brightest gold, or flimsy straw? No matter what, because your foundation is Jesus, you are saved, but you must face a pain as great as fire when you face God and admit that you have done little with that foundation.