11, 10, 5, 3D Scoring

[Grizzly]

Ran into this last weekend. I'd scored myself the old way, 10,8,5 at a previous shoot, not knowing about this new scoring and gasped when my 260 score was beat by someone shooting about 290. I wondered who that might have been.

I can't imagine the logic behind this scoring. I did fairly well this time. The range has changed from hilly and challenging, to hilly and easy. Most shots are now under 20, and most probably 15 to 18 yards. This month I shot 16 11's, 10 10's and 4 5's. Two fives were lack of concentration and two I just blew. I turned in a 296 and could tell the guys working the booth were surprised and complemented my score. I obviously enjoyed the shoot, but knew that at longer ranges, it would be a different story. The amazing part was the compound scores. There were a handful that broke 300, another handful in the in the 290's and alot between 250 and 290.

I think if they want to score a kill with high points, almost the same, that's fine, but to add to "that realism", they should make a wound either a 0 or a minus. Probably a zero would be fine. Actually, I don't agree with this scoring at all. Especially at these close ranges. I think a ten ring hit demonstrates better shooting skill than the eight hit. I see an eight hit on a real deer, as a "whew" shot. Sort of a " I just managed to sneek that shot into the vitals, but I missed what I was really aiming at". Oh well, I guess I go to these shoots to improve my personal shooting, to meet fellow stickbow shooters and to enjoy shooting, a pleasant day amongst trees and friends. I also realize that many an 8, and sometimes even a 5, is the only "real" shot that will give a short blood trail, but that's another story.

[Bob Gordon]

Welcome to the dumbing down of trad yardages. Usually this is done at club shoots by popular demand of some of the archers. The eleven ring was added a few years ago as a tie breaker for some of the compound guys who are good eneugh to shoot perfect or near perfect scores, remember this is still a compound game and many times the trad stakes are set by compound archers who don't understand trad equipment and sometimes they are set by a trad archer who likes the ultra close shots as that what HE likes for hunting or hunting practice. Many forget that 3-D is a target shoot period and should be set as a target shoot with yardages to give a chalenge to all. It's kinda hard to really put to much into regarding 3-D as great hunting practice as regards where the ten ring is as it's sure not where I would like my arrow to go on a real animal most of the time. I guess the hunting practice part is that you must pick a spot, usually in the wrong place but where the best scoring ring is. Any good arrow shot at any kind of target is hunting practice to me....warf

[Grizzly]

Evil Emporer, you're right about the group wanting closer ranges. That was freely admitted when I comented on how the shoot had changed a few months ago.

It's possible I wasn't clear about the scoring. They are totally ignoring that small 12 ring inside of the 10 ring. What they are doing, is calling the 10 ring a heart shot and now scoring it as 11 points. then they take that big lung area, the 8 ring, calling it a kill, and score it as 10 points. They leave a wound as a 5. Changes the whole complextion of scoring. Now everone gets a higher score, although that's not always the case.

I still cringe sometimes when I think how close those targets want you to get to that shoulder to get a high score. It's a shame that in the begining, they didn't hollow out that shoulder area as a wound area and not include it as a 10 or 8.

[steve morley]

Bob over here in England everybody shoots from the same pegs, some 3D's are set out as far a 80 yards (mostly 60 yards max) scoring is 20\16 14\10 and 8\4 as you see we have 3 pegs and chances to score.

The max for a 40 target course is 800, for the Longbows a good score is around 600 and the top Recurves and Longbows can shoot 650+


I have shot 3D's in the USA and can see the added pressure of not making a single mistake and did require me to make some mental adjustments when looking at big 3D's as such close ranges, my brain just couldn't accept how close it was. I dont think I would like to shoot such short range shots all the time and I can see what is meant by dumbing down Trad shooters.

[Bob Gordon]

Grizz...Got ya now...I know what you mean. I went to 3-D shoot last year and they did about the same thing with the scoreing. I guess some of them just want a warm and fuzzy feeling for shooting a real high score regardless of how close the arrow is to being a good killing shot on a real critter. I don't like point blank yardages at a shoot, real animals ya but not at a target shoot. Most of the makers of 3-D targets put the ten ring right in the middle of the shoulder and a lot of the eight ring would give you a green arrow on a real animal, guess that's 3-D for ya....warf

[BLACK WOLF]

I guess I'm going to stir the pot a little here.

I think 3D should be more geared towards hunting distances no matter what type of bow you shoot because of the type of targets they are.

I believe 3D targets were developed to give hunting archers a more realistic target to practice with and weren't developed to be a substitute for a field archery target.

Scoring and scoring rings should also reflect hunting situations better than they do now.

If you want to consistantly shoot at longer ranges in a competition, than set up a field course like they did in the good old days ;) Those were a blast.

Ray ;)

[Grey Ghost]

First Topic, 3D scoring. We have a League around here with 6 different League Shoots, each at a different Club and they all follow IBO rules. The 11 ring as about the size of a quarter inside the 10 ring. The 8 ring is of course around the 10 ring, then rest of the foam is a 5. I haven seen any of the other 4-5 clubs score it any differently (11 clubs total). Only exception would be a couple meets where ASA rules are followed. That not only changes the location of the quarter size circle inside the 10 ring, but the class regulations change.

Second Topic. Club rules vs. National Organization rules. Individual clubs may choose to change the rules for any reason what-so-ever. One of the best meets I have gone to, (Twin Oaks in TN) offers choices in which the more difficult has one value and an easier shot has another value. Buck vs. Doe, Long vs. Short, kneeling through brush, vs. standing clear. Its a game for gosh sakes, who cares if its short or long, its 3D.

Third Topic. Field Archery vs. 3D. They are two different games, different rules. I really prefer Field Archery, since you get to shoot 4X's more. But, there isn’t but one per year in this area, while we have a 3D meet every week. Field archery ranges seem to take more attention and work than 3D.

Fourth Topic. (Pass popcorn please) Meet directors, as a whole, in our area, are a sorry bunch that choose to ignore the rules when it comes to laying out 3D courses. They know better, they just feel overworked and don't do better. They are only concerned with how the course will be shot from the Orange stake. The distances, (based upon maximum), represent a ratio and should be kept in proportion. 50, 45, 35, 25. So if the orange stake is set at 47 yards, then the white stake should be set at 23.5 yards. Orange 30, white 15. When the Orange is set at 30 and all the other stakes are set to the same distance, then green, yellow and white are being discriminated against. This last week I saw the white stake set at over 30 yards, and the Orange stake was about 40. Rule's only mean a dam, if the directors want them to.

gg



:2cents: :goodvevil

[Bob Gordon]

Darn, to early for popcorn...If 3-D yardages are kept as short as most are now for traditional archers, I mean the 10, 15, 20 yd shots on full sized animals many can call this hunting yardages and rightly so. BUT this is still a target shoot at animal shaped targets. If they are such short yardages where is the incentive to ever learn to be a better shot on any type target? So much has been said and written about proper form, tuning for perfect arrow flight, aiming systems, etc. but at such close ranges as most of today's 3-D shoots are now at much of the above really doesn't apply any more. A poor flying arrow and poor form will still be somewhere on the target at these point blank yardages so why spend money on a faster bow, proper spined arrows. learning proper form? I think the incentive to progress to be a better shot starts to fall in the background pretty fast. 3-D is about all there is now except for a little winter indoor spot shooting and the ultra rare field shoot that nobody wants to attend anyhow so 3-D is all we have. Not wanting to talk about the "good old days" when stickbow archers were a heck of a lot better than they are now but I was there and they were much better shots on the average and I beleive that was due to longer targets to shoot at. I don't mean go nuts on 3-D yardages but when the were set to 30 or 35 yds it was a lot more of a challange and gave a little incentive to learn to shoot better farther out....warf

[BLACK WOLF]

This is by no means directed at anyone person or group of like minded individuals ;)

I have yet to see a great traditional shooter shoot the same near perfect scores as a pro compound shooter can. I don't see those pros complaining about the courses being to easy.

For a typical 3D shoot, I think the really good traditional shooters should gear their way of thinking as a pro compound shooter does and focus on trying to only get 11's or 12's on these 3D courses set up for hunting situations.

Like I said earlier, 3D was designed for hunting archers, not field archers.

If an average hunting archer wants to shoot a 3D with his 55lbs, wood riser recurve, shooting +495 g. arrrows and focuses the majority of his target practice at typical hunting distances, he is going to get frustrated competiting in competitions geared towards field archery where distances can range out to +60 yrds. Some will want to start practicing more at longer distances and others will just stop attending those shoots.

There is a difference in equipment...some more minor than others, but it can add up if you start including all the advantages.

I personally would like to see 2 classes for trad shooters. A hunter class and a target class. That way just about everyone could be happy.

Anyone who doesn't think there isn't any advantage to shooting a metal riser bow with an elevated rest, 40lbs. or lighter limbs, shooting carbon arrows that weight between 5 to 6g./ lbs. when compared to a wood riser bow drawing +55lbs shooting off the shelf with arrows that weight 8 to 10g./ lbs. isn't in touch with reality. I'm not saying anyone here thinks that, but wanted to clarify that just in case ;)

Ray

[James Wrenn]

Around here most use 5 8 10 and some shoots score the 12s if all the targets have them. Most of the shots at our club are less than 30yds.They will have a couple of the bigger targets like a bou or big ram at maybe 40 to 45yds.The close shots are always covered pretty good where you need a good hit or you might not hit foam at all. Most people that come like it that way and there are no lanes at all.I shot the tough man round at WV last year and it was about like shooting our regular course. :)

I don't really care how far they put the targets.I will shoot at them either way.I don't like them to be close and wide open.If they are going to be close put them in some trash. :)

btw.. Now the compound courses I have shot around here have mowed lanes wide enough to drive a semi down all the way to the target. :)I really don't care about shooting those courses

[Bob Gordon]

Ray...It's still a target shoot, do you think it's unreasonable to have a large target like a moose, grizz, elk, buffalo set at 35 yds like they used to be until the IBO trashed the RU class and downsized everything to a max of 25 yds? Geez...Your shooting at something the size of a small pickup truck! If you go to a 3-D competition, big on the competition part and want to shoot your high poundage hunting bow and arrows go for it and have a good time. There are many who go for the competition part mainly and as long as they use equipment that falls within the rules even if it's not what your shooting why should there be a problem? Both archers can and will have a good time. Many attend these shoots for the good times, fun, companionship of buddies, I know I do BUT I also like to be a competitior as it puts a nice bit of spice in the match. Yardages shouldn't be unreasonable but why take the challange out of it by putting them at spear chucking range?....warf

[Papabull]

I think the trend toward shorter and shorter distances is iintended to handicap the older, more experienced archers who will now have to quit taking binoculars and start taking their reading glasses. It just ain't right!

[BLACK WOLF]

Bob,

Heck yea! I love a few of those longer targets placed in there.

As far as competition goes. I thrive on it. I love shooting any type of competition. Just because I would like to keep 3D shoots more geared towards hunting yardages than field target yardages, doesn't mean I'm not competitive. Just ask Piney ;)

You asked - "There are many who go for the competition part mainly and as long as they use equipment that falls within the rules even if it's not what your shooting why should there be a problem?"

I agree. There is no problem based on that question.

If you want to be competitive at hunting distances, concentrate on only getting 11s or 12s. Until I can see a trad guy scoring close to the same as a pro compound shooter, the course IMO, is not too easy.

My suggestion ;) Compund shooters are broken up into many classes. Why not give us 2?

Hunter Traditional Class - Draw weight minimum 45lbs. Archer must use arrows that weight 8g./lbs. or more of draw weight. Targets can range from 10 to 30 yrds. with an average target distance of 17.5yrds.

Target Traditional Class - archer can use any weight arrow. Targets can range from 15 to 60yrds. with an average range of 35yrds.

At distances 20yrds. or less equipment choices become less of an advantage over others.

Ray ;)

[Bob Gordon]

Ray...Yup, I agree, IBO used to put the target types in the RU class, broken down by some equipment changes, it was great to be able to shoot out to 35 yds and the off the shelf archers got the 25 yd max. Wish it was still that way, oh well.....I wish it would quit raining too.....warf

[James Wrenn]

Black Wolf we have hunters classes that have to be 45lb min,wood or aluminum arrows and no rest.I f you shoot carbon,use a lite weight bow with rest or clicker you have to shoot in the unlimited class.When I shoot carbon I shoot in there with what ever shows up. :)

[BLACK WOLF]

I knew great minds think a like ;)

Ray ;)

[BLACK WOLF]

IMO, I also think carbon should be allowed in both classes since it is becoming so popular. The seperation should be in the weight of the arrow. I have some Gold Tip carbon arrows that I can get to weight between 550g. and 720g. with the internal weighting system.

A well tuned 550g. carbon arrow won't have much if any more of an advantage over well tuned 550g. wood or aluminum arrow when accuracy is considered, especially at distances under 30yrds.

Clickers and elevated rests??? Well, I really don't have a strong opinion one way or the other concerning those. I have seen guys hunt with both and at an average distance of 17.5yrds. the advantages really aren't going to show that much if at all.

I also think...Why keep a guy out of the Hunter's class if he uses an elevated rest or clicker to hunt with?

I only use the arrow, bow weight and shot distance as guidlines to teach ethical archery hunting practices concerning traditional equipment regulations while competing in 3D tournaments.

Ray ;)

[Desert Archer]

Ray,

The picture on our masthead kind of backs up what you are saying about bows. Those are the top five finishers at some big 3D shoot - sorry I don't know which one but somebody will no doubt chime in and tell us. Only the second place finisher (second guy from the right) is shooting a hunting bow, complete with bow quiver, and that's Ricky Walsh who I've read is the exception to a lot of rules(LOL).

Everyone else has a metal riser, take down recurve (Olympic style to some people) and they even have stabilizers for-cryin'-out-loud. I'd be willing to bet none of those bows except Rick's is over 50# and I'd suspect most are closer to 40#. Of course it makes a difference, but like Bob said, it's just target shooting at targets that look like animals and are made of foam. Target bows work better...why else would they call them "target bows" (smiley face goes here).

As for changing 3D, I would like to see it done more the way they shoot it in England. They borrowed from the Field Archery Animal round and shoot three arrows, each from a different position. The further away the more points it's worth. As you get closer the point value for hits goes down. Now that would get me back to shooting 3D.

Dave

[Holmes]

....As for changing 3D, I would like to see it done more the way they shoot it in England. They borrowed from the Field Archery Animal round and shoot three arrows, each from a different position. The further away the more points it's worth. As you get closer the point value for hits goes down....

Dave

Agree wholeheartedly.

-Holmes

[tuffshot]

Gentlemen,

Olympic archery is as close to field archery as we have for the most part now and 3-D being the biggest game in town. There are those in Olympic archery that excell more than others although shooting from a known and same distance as everyone else, with higher than normal tech equipment the scores at the end of the match widen greatly to several hundred points between 1st and say 10th place, And the spread widens from there.

In 3-D the yardage is unknown several different types of bows are used and for most it is concidered hunting practice. The 3-d thing derived from old 2D flat targets, with the 2d targets with animal pictures on them or pictures on a piece of cardboard in front of a stack of bales. The switch to 3-D has a whole new hunting like look, so more of hunting type yardages were being requested. And even though you may be put into one of two groups there is still a large points spread between 1st and 10th place and the point spread widens as you go down the list.

Guess what I am trying to say is there are alot more 10th thru 100??? shooters out there than there are 1st thru 10th place shooters and they also have a voice that is being heard. So if you want things to change then the 10th thru ???? place shooters they are the ones you will have to convince.

If you go to an IBO shoot this year Challenge yourself shoot from the compound bowhunters stake, ask for a list of the winners at the end of the shoot or have them mailed to you and see how well you stack up to the competition. I am sure there will be those who end up in the 1st thru 10th place from this group. But then the rest of us will be in there somewhere 10th or below.

That doesn't mean I will not stop trying to be in the top ten :)

[Grizzly]

It seems like just about every 3d thread turns into a smorgasboard (sp?) of ideas and likes and dislikes. I hate to think of what type of rule book it would take to make everyone happy. I think you'd probably need a range officer scoring at each target, few shooters would be willing to memorize it all.

I realize most here are heavy into target archery, but archery itself seems to be divided into many cliques. Sometimes I can't really tell who is controlling 3d. At some ranges it's obviously the hunters, and at others it's the target compounders. Some are split, some like it easy or realistic or difficult. I just may be pretty lucky here in Central Illinois. Within reasonable driving distance, I can find just about any type I want, and I think I really enjoy most of them. The close ones are great because I can clearly see the 10 and 12 rings and can really try for them and rack up a score I could only dream about on a tough coarse. The tough coarses bring me back for the challenges. My favorite are the traditional only coarses that really mix it up and get creative. This coming week, the host club has a field coarse and is really into target, may just take the new Avalon plus there even though it's almost time for turkeys.

Qestion about equipment, that Avalon plus has a magnetic spring rest (inexpensive W&W), right now no clicker or sights. What class would it fall into at 3d's? Is that rest considered a "mechanical rest" as mentioned in the Cloverdale ad for their shoot? Craig

[Grey Ghost]

The only bow that may be shot in competition in any/all IBO class's is the Longbow! (LB) The only bow that may be shot in competition in any IBO class except the Longbow Class (LB) is the Recurve (TRD). The only class in which you must use wood arrows is the LB.

Nothing keeps anyone that shoots a longbow or recurve from shooting in the other classes, if they truely want competition, or truly want the longer yardage shots.

Do you want the rules changed, in favor of longer yardage shots, for the improvement of Archery, or to tilt the playing field in your direction? Rules are rules, change them or follow them.

The same folks that require I shoot my Longbow with wooden arrows, set the targets at 30+ yards. That 30+ yard shot is a rule violation. I can't shoot aluminum or carbon, but they can place the target and extra five yards out and thats O.K. ??

If I shoot my aluminum arrows off my LB shelf, I'm in TRD class, if I shoot my LB offan elevated rest, I'm in RU class. Rules should apply to all. I don't know where you live, but around here all rules are not followed.

gg
:2cents: