How can you know for sure you are saved?

[Cato]

I recently heard an evangelist give his personal testimony. He was a former professional wrestler. In his testimony he said (paraphrase): "Yeah, I walked down an isle of a church at least twice in my life, said a prayer, cried a little bit, and left there thinking I had my ticket punched . But after that, nothing changed in my life".

He went on to say much later, after much heart ache, he realized he had not clue what salvation was all about.

So, how can a fella know he is saved?

[WildmanSC]

Cato,

Salvation is experiential. When you have experienced it, you know it!

When I was saved I was under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. The conviction was so great I was unable to sleep.

I got my Bible and went to some verses that I had heard preached, and the Holy Spirit was using to convict my heart.

Rom 3:23 For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

The Holy Spirit brought conviction to MY heart that I was a sinner.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death...

The Holy Spirit made it clear to my heart that for my labor of sin I had earned the wage, I derserved, death.

Roman 10:9 For if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, believing in thine heart that God has raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The Holy Spirit brought conviction to my heart that I needed to pray, repent of my sin, acknowledge that I believed that Christ had already died for my sins, was buried and God raised Him from the dead on the third day. I prayed to God the Father repenting of my sin and acknowledging that which the Holy spirit convicted me I needed to do and asked the Lord Jesus Christ to come into my heart and life as personal Saviour. When I said Amen!, I felt a sense of Joy unlike any I have experienced ever since. And I felt a burden lifted off of my shoulders. That burden was the burden of sin I had been carrying for 28 years, and Christ lifted them off of my shoulders and placed them on His! Hallaleuah!! Glory to God! Amen!!

How do I know I'm saved? The Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit that I am saved. When I was saved my dead spirit was given life by The Holy Spirit! And to this day as long as I'm walking in the power of the Holy Spirit and in close fellowship with the Lord, the Holy Spirit continues to bear witness to my spirit that I am saved. When I allow myself to slide away I don't sense that close fellowship, nor that witness of the Holy Spirit. When I don't, does that mean I'm not saved? No, it means I'm walking carnally in the power of flesh! Praise the Lord repentance will restore the fellowship and the witness of the Holy Spirit!!

Bill

[Esquire]

Cato - Excellent question. Bill - You hit on some good truth there, brother.

At the risk of possibly being misunderstood, I want to offer a very simple response. God is true to his promises.

Our salvation is dependent on who He is and what He has done, and not on what we feel.

There was a time in my life when I was so emotionally numb that I despaired of feeling anything. People who went into ecstasies over their "salvation experience" disturbed me, because I didn't feel that I could have emotional rush even if I wanted to, and I wasn't sure that I wanted to. Yet I somehow felt that I ought to.

After much searching of the scriptures, the world and my own soul, I came to the conclusion that I was just going to have to trust God to be true to his own promises and I made a decision to relinquish control over my own life. I felt no emotional rush, but a seed of peace was planted that has grown ever since.

I don't say this to take anything away from your excellent post, Bill. I just want to share something from my own experience for the sake of those who, like myself, might find themself at a place of honest belief, or even simply desired belief, but too emotionally numb to feel anything. To that person, I would say: God is true to his promises and do not doubt your own salvation merely because you do not feel something.

And also to those who do "feel" something, I would say: Sometime or another you will cease to feel something. Perhaps depression, exhaustion or discouragement will set in. When the feeling leaves, your salvation does not!! Again, thankfully God's promises depend on who He is, not on what we feel.

Many of the great fathers of our faith wrestled with depression and feelings of worthlessness, powerlessness, etc. Thankfully they did not throw in the towell.

Well, your post is not - "What must we do to be saved?" - it is "How can we be sure that we are?"

We can be sure that we are because He who offers that assurance is worthy of our trust.

[Cato]

Is it possible to become a Christian, and yet no changes occur in your attitude and lifestyle?

If a person walks an isle, says a prayer with good intentions, and then goes back to life as usual, is it possible he got saved? Is it likely?

[WildmanSC]

Cato,

In response to your last post, we cannot read the heart of another person, only God can do that. Sometimes, I find myself having difficulty reading my own heart!

If you will read my initial post again, you will note that most of it is about how I experienced salvation, and that is one reason I know I'm saved. But just as important is the last paragraph. The Holy Spirit tells me I'm saved by the sweet peace that only the Comforter can provide!

Love relationships by their very nature are passionate. That term implies emotion. How do we get that emotion, that passion in our relationship with the Lord? The Bible tells me that I can access the power of the Holy Spirit through prayer and through praise. When we get that power we will receive from him joy, peace and love. The joy and peace of our salvation and the love of Almighty God. They are always there for us, but we experience them only when we honor and glorify Him through prayer and praise!

Bill

[Bill McNeal]

I was given eternal life less than four years ago. Prior to that I read the scriptures, and quoted the man created "sinners prayer", and was told that I was "saved". One cold evening the Spirit of Christ come upon me. Not in a "church" setting, not listening to "Billy Graham", or at the end of an ailse, but rather outside my bedroom, where the power of Christ literally put me on my face. That night was puncuated by wild dreams, and as morning came, I realized that there was indeed a change taking place. As I started to read the Scriptures that I ignorantly read before my heart transplant, they seemed to make sense, and it was later that I realized that this was the wisdom that can only come via the Holy Ghost.

Within the week I was called to a "Baptist" Church, where I was Baptized, and the people there seemed amazed at my witness, and ability to almost instantly preach Gospel. I was quickly accepted into the fold, and was courted by the "movers and shakers" within the Church to attend meetings, dinner invites, parties, and so forth. I was asked to teach young adults in the Sunday school. I was the perfect "baptist", paying my tithe (UnChristian as it was} and teaching the "baptist" doctrine. Or so I thought.

For God had other plans. Not long after that, God increased my knowledge even greater. During a worship service, God revealed to me my call, and that call would be one that would come with much long suffering, for God revealed to me, that my call would be that of a teacher, who would serve God here on earth, by teaching the Gospel, and by rebuking the false teachings being taught in His Church. During that very worship service, it was revealed to me, by God, just how unBiblical, and man made that worship service really was. Needless to say, after that when I began to preach about the UnChristian premise of the tithe, professional clergy, the pulpit, and denominational titles, it was met with much venom. When you point out the Sovereign Power of Jesus Christ in a Church that teaches that it is men who have the Sovereignty, or what they call "free will" , it goes over like the old "fart in church"

As time passed, and after much planting of seeds, I have since moved on. Now some of you are probably asking, "Bill, what does that have to do with the question"? Well, I point out my rebirth, and following growth to point out that I firmly believe that while God has a purpose for EVERYONE He adopts out of death, that call is not always made clear at first. At first glance it seemed as though my purpose was simply to give 10% of my income, shake alot of hands, and sing "baptist" hymns on Sunday morning. Nothing could be further from that. You see, man was not created to please men. Man was created to Glorify God, and that glorifiction is based on His time-table, and on His Desire.

We need to understand that we are on a "need to know" basis, and we bring nothing to the table. "How do you know"???. You just do, and perhaps the greatest "evidence" for lack of a better term is what the Bible calls "longsuffering". While our ministry gifts may be hidden at times from us, ALL those who are saved from death will endure suffering, the passionate trials that only those in Christ will bear, for the true children of Jesus bear His suffering daily. While the man created religions of today preach a false prosperity gospel that equates blessings with material gain, and financial growth, the Bible clearly tells us that the Elect will not be found at the head tables. They will not be decorated in ornate gowns, giving lofty speaches, from idolic pulpits. They like Christ, will be the stones rejected by men, the non-descript people who appear on the surface to be of little worth, or input. The true elect of Christ will often find themselves losing relationships with worldly friends, and family because they no longer seek to please men, and worldly icons, but rather they seek to follow Christ, and Scripture tells us that such a desire comes at great cost.

While the false "church" teaches that salvation is based upon your actions, and that Grace given, can be taken away, you beloved, who were chosen by God before the creation are predestined to be Holy and blameless, and nothing , as the Apostle says, be it high or low, not even death can seperate you from Jesus Christ. Not the ramblings of hired clergymen, not the finger pointers, or legalists. If in your heart there exists a desire to be Christly, it exists because HE CHOSE YOU to be Christly, and despite the sinful nature of your dieing physical body, your eternal being is spotless, and pure. Just because the guy sitting next to you cannot understand, or see this beauty does not mean that it does not exist, because you exist to Glorify God, and He sees your heart, because He made your heart!

Shalom

[Esquire]

Bill,

I have read each of your variouos posts with interest, over time. As in this post, you speak with conviction and obvious sincerity. The Bible does speak of election, but we also have a part to play. We can not come to God in our own strength. Yet he will not force us against our will.

This is in keeping with His character and purpose. It is true that nothing can seperate us from the Love of God. But The hard edge of your "election doctrine" conceals another, darker side. Just as we can do nothing about our own salvation, we bear no responsibility for our own sin. This is the logical flipside. Of course, if we bear no responsibility, we have no need of salvation!

In addition, one cannot know, for sure, in your election economy, outside one's own personal experience. And personal experiance is not the final arbiter, and has never been.

A personal sense of calling must be tested against the scriptures, lest one claims to be called who the Lord never knew. New Testament phrophecy - very distinct from old testament prophecy - was to be tested by the body of believers, and presumably against what scripture was available.

Your doctrine seems to suggest that we can do nothing and that we bear no responsibility; that IN FACT we have NO PART TO PLAY. If this is your position, while it has some seeds of truth wrapped up in it, it fails to tell the whole story, with respect to our part in sin and salvation. It strays from biblical truth, in that it goes too far.

Perhaps I have not understood you correctly, but these are my concerns, as I review your public posts. I do not doubt your heart.

Mike

[Rooselk]

After many years in the church I no longer attend any church, nor do I still consider myself an evangelical Christian. With this said, you can take my comments with a grain of salt.

I think many evangelical Christians have a fundamental misunderstanding of how one is saved. It's not a "thing" that you do - like walking down an aisle or going forward at a Billy Graham crusade or even getting baptised. It's not even a "decision" that one makes. To add a "thing" to salvation is to add a "work" which takes away from God's gift. This is true even if the "thing" we are adding is a "decision" to become a Christian. We are told in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are saved through faith - but even that faith to believe is a gift from God as well. There is therefore no human work involved in salvation. Once a person understands that they do not contribute to their own salvation in any manner that person is set free to respond to God's gift of salvation out of gratitute and love. I agree with Esquire when he writes, "Our salvation is dependent on who He is and what He has done, and not on what we feel."


Some of what is being raised is a rehash of the Arminianism vs. Calvinism theological debate that goes back centuries. I can only suggest that those that subscribe to a decison theology would do well to read Martin Luther's book, "Bondage of the Will."

http://www.reformedreader.org/bow.htm (Bondage of the Will excerpt)

[larry]

Esquire, God does not force us against our will, He changes it. after Jesus spoke to the rich ruler, his diciples were shocked, and asked who then could enter into the kingdom? Christ said with men it's impossible, but with God all things are possible.

when you speak of bearing no responsibility of our sin,( if we bear none in our salvation), something that seems to make sense in the mind of man, but has no biblical basis whatsoever. no where, I repeat, no where, does the Scipture proclaim this. ( that we bear no responsibility for our sin). please don't confuse this with the forgiveness that we find in Christ.


to say that the doctrine of election promotes one to be held unacountable for his actions, is a complete misunderstanding of the doctrine and of the Scriptures.


to God be the glory

[Esquire]

Larry,

I don't mean to do an injustice to these doctrines. It is hard to articulate my concerns without appearing to take an innacurate position myself. I don't mean to open a full debate between free-will and pre-destination. I believe that election is real. We are completely dependant upon God, including, and maybe even especially, for our salvation. At the same time, we have been given free will. God is not a puppet master. So here is what I think:

1. Free will does not mean we are saved by our actions. I totally agree with this.

2. Election does not mean that we have no responsibility before God. This is also true.

Any postition that violates either of these biblical precepts is probably too extreme and has strayed into error. The truth about our salvation must accomodate both of these realities.

So my response to brother Bill McNeal is simply this: To my way of thinking it seems that he MAY have placed so much stock in the doctrine of election that he has left NO ROOM for the truth of free will, which must somehow be accounted for.

It isn't that I think election ITSELF implies that we bear no responsibility for our sins. Instead, I believe that when someone goes to an extreme on the doctrine of election, such that they themselves completely ignore free will; THEN that person is in error. Is Bill McNeal in error? I cannot say for sure. Based on his posts I worry that he goes too far.

How do we account for both? I can't say that I know for sure. This is a mystery. But just because I don't fully understand the mysterious balance between freedom, God's Sovereignty and divine election does not mean that I cannot have assurance of my salvation based upon God's character and His promises.

I hope this explains a little better where I am coming from. Believe me, I'm no expert (not even in my own mind!!) on these matters. These are simply the thoughts that I have based upon my reading and understanding of God's Word.

In this, as in all things, I reserve the right to be wrong! I am life's student, as we all are, but I am very often a remedial student!!! :)

Mike

[Rooselk]

The problem with election and predestination is that the mind of man is limited while there are no such limitations upon the mind of God. When humans try to get their minds around weighty issues like election and predestination, then package them into a nice theological system, it usually leads to one error or another. The Bible clearly teaches that man is accountable for his actions and yet at the same time that believers are chosen. On the surface these sound like mutually exclusive doctrines, one contradicting the other. When earlier theologians of centuries past wrestled with these doctrines they tended to fall into one of two warring camps: that of John Calvin or that of James Arminius. Even to this day, whether we recognize it or not, with few exceptions most of our churches and denominations still tend to side with either Calvin or Arminius, which effects the theology of a particular church or denomination.

To get election and predestination wrong can effect one's understanding of basic Christian doctrines such as the Atonement. For instance, is the work of the cross only for 'the elect' or is it for the whole world? Can Grace be resisted or is it irresistible? Can a true believer lose his salvation or will God cause the believer to persevere? As you can see, what a person believes concerning non-essential doctrines like election and predestination can effect one's belief about an essential doctrine.

In my opinion, it is best to leave such matters in God's hands with the understanding that we can trust God with doctrines that we with human limitations cannot always understand.

[larry]

Esquire,
well , we all certainly wrestle with the problem Paul looks at in RO.7,14-23
but don't stop there, make sure you read vs. 24 and 25 also. that is where the blessed hope of glory is found!!

to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen

larry

[Cato]

Some challenging theological discussion. It's good that we can have this kind of open discussion. It challenges us to carefully examine the Word, and what it really says.

I will post more later, as I am having to work today (Saturday) and only have a few moments.

But here is another part of my question.

The Bible says when you are "in Christ" you become a new creation. Old things passed away, new things come.

Is it possible to have a real conversion experience, and then see no evidence of a changed life in the believer?

What is all this about a "new nature"? There seem to be so many Christians out there living just like the world. Is it possible they really are not saved?

[larry]

Cato, I don't believe that it's possible,( no evidence of a changed life), having said that, we need to realize that we all grow in the grace of God at a different pace, but grow we will if we have experienced true conversion. the work of the Spirit will manifest itself in our lives. and the fruit of the Spirit will begin to bear.

larry

[Cueball]

I believe it to be impossible to come face to face with your savior who takes away the sin of the world and not be changed. However Larry makes a great point the spirit of God convicts each person differently and so there maybe areas in a saved persons life that he or she has not been convicted of.

I believe God knows who will and want be saved but my I struggle with the concept that God does not allow us to chose. My thoughts on the bible are the common theme from front to back is God's love. If we are to really examine love then we most admit that true love can only be given not made or taken. Let me try and explain if I could make ever woman i met fall in love with me it might have been cool for awhile when i was 25. But after a short time the relationship would have been empty because I would have known that I had made it happen. What makes my relationship with my wife so special is the fact that of all the men in the world she chose me. She decided to love me she gives me love. I know we have limited knowledge in comparison to God. But even God is bound by his own laws and word. So can he change true love and make it where he makes humans to love him or is waiting for us to chose him as he has chosen us.

Thats pretty deep thinking for me. I am sure some of you really smart guys can find all kinds of holes in that thoght process but to date i have yet to find one.



.................................................R oby.............................................


:bow2: :jesus: :bow2:

[larry]

Cueball,

here's the difference as I see it, our wives love us not because we are wholly worthy of their love, but because they extend grace in loving only us.

God on the other hand , is the only being who is completly worthy and deserving of the love of man. it's just that the effects of our sin nature run so deep, and so permeate our entire being, that we are unable to grasp that truth apart from God revealing it to us. and in His grace, he has done that through the Lord Jesus Christ.

God demonstated His love for us in this, while we were yet sinners,Christ Jesus died for us.

larry

[Bill McNeal]

Bill,

I have read each of your variouos posts with interest, over time. As in this post, you speak with conviction and obvious sincerity. The Bible does speak of election, but we also have a part to play. We can not come to God in our own strength. Yet he will not force us against our will.

This is in keeping with His character and purpose. It is true that nothing can seperate us from the Love of God. But The hard edge of your "election doctrine" conceals another, darker side. Just as we can do nothing about our own salvation, we bear no responsibility for our own sin. This is the logical flipside. Of course, if we bear no responsibility, we have no need of salvation!

In addition, one cannot know, for sure, in your election economy, outside one's own personal experience. And personal experiance is not the final arbiter, and has never been.

A personal sense of calling must be tested against the scriptures, lest one claims to be called who the Lord never knew. New Testament phrophecy - very distinct from old testament prophecy - was to be tested by the body of believers, and presumably against what scripture was available.

Your doctrine seems to suggest that we can do nothing and that we bear no responsibility; that IN FACT we have NO PART TO PLAY. If this is your position, while it has some seeds of truth wrapped up in it, it fails to tell the whole story, with respect to our part in sin and salvation. It strays from biblical truth, in that it goes too far.

Perhaps I have not understood you correctly, but these are my concerns, as I review your public posts. I do not doubt your heart.

Mike

Mike, I am going to try and gently respond to you. One thing you need to realize is that I do not teach "doctrine". I teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I have no ties to denominational religions, or the false teachings that come from them. therefore I am compelled NOT , to shore them up .My comments are not based on the doctrines of men, but rather on the Holy Scriptures given to the Church.

Being a Bible teacher, I submit to you that Jesus Christ said, that only through Him may a man be saved. Jesus Christ said to those who carried His teachings to distant lands, that He Chose them. Jesus Christ said that no man seeks Him, and that all have turned away. Jesus Christ said He will grant mercy to those He chooses. Jesus Christ said He will harden who He chooses . Jesus Christ said that He chooses some for eternity, while others are created for destruction. Jesus Christ said that He chose the members of His Church before He created the world. Jesus Christ said his Church is predestined to Glory. Jesus Christ said that such choice was made simply to pleasure Himself. Jesus Christ said that once He chose a Church member, that membership will not be revoked. Jesus Christ tells men NOT to question His motives, because He considers created beings unworthy of questioning those who Created them.

While some may have a real problem with the Sovereign Power of Jesus Christ, I for one do not. I am very comfortable in knowing that it was Jesus who made it possible for my salvation. I am very comfortable knowing that my salvation is out of my hands, because as the Bible teaches us, man was incapable of saving himself with deeds, obiedience to law, and material sacrifice. I am comfortable knowing that Jesus bears my yoke, and I am NOT a member of a false religion which finds its members questioning daily their salvation, or anguishing if their "freewill" has cost them a place in heaven. I am very comfortable knowing that my belief in Christ was made possible by Him FIRST bringing His Holy Spirit to dwell in me.

The very reason we have these debates over "how do I know if I am saved" is because of Satan. It is Satan who creates the false doctrines of works, which once again attemps to diminish the power of the Cross, and place the responsibility of Salvation on sinful men who are incaple. The Bible tells us that man is unworthy of eternal life, and that he does not seek God, and that he lives under a curse, yet through false teaching, Satan teaches that such a man can set aside such things, and "accept" a perfect, and Holy Saviour. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Bible clearly tells us that man, being the sin soaked wretch he is, is incapable of willing himself out of the curse of death placed on him in the Garden. It is only through a merciful , and perfect God that such a curse can be lifted, and life regenerated.

One of the most simple, yet telling bits of Scripture, is Paul the Apostles adress to the saints in Ephesus, where in the first sentence he says ........"Paul , an Apostle of Christ Jesus, by the will of God". Paul does not say , "by my will", or by "freewill", but rather Paul says, by God's WILL. It is the pride of man that allows him to be decieved, but I tell you now as I am called, that it is Jesus Christ whose will, will be done, and that is why He is the Great Comforter.........Praise be to Christ Jesus who reigns on High!

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

Mike, I am going to try and gently respond to you. One thing you need to realize is that I do not teach "doctrine". I teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I have no ties to denominational religions, or the false teachings that come from them. therefore I am compelled NOT , to shore them up .My comments are not based on the doctrines of men, but rather on the Holy Scriptures given to the Church.

Being a Bible teacher, I submit to you that Jesus Christ said, that only through Him may a man be saved. Jesus Christ said to those who carried His teachings to distant lands, that He Chose them. Jesus Christ said that no man seeks Him, and that all have turned away. Jesus Christ said He will grant mercy to those He chooses. Jesus Christ said He will harden who He chooses . Jesus Christ said that He chooses some for eternity, while others are created for destruction. Jesus Christ said that He chose the members of His Church before He created the world. Jesus Christ said his Church is predestined to Glory. Jesus Christ said that such choice was made simply to pleasure Himself. Jesus Christ said that once He chose a Church member, that membership will not be revoked. Jesus Christ tells men NOT to question His motives, because He considers created beings unworthy of questioning those who Created them.

While some may have a real problem with the Sovereign Power of Jesus Christ, I for one do not. I am very comfortable in knowing that it was Jesus who made it possible for my salvation. I am very comfortable knowing that my salvation is out of my hands, because as the Bible teaches us, man was incapable of saving himself with deeds, obiedience to law, and material sacrifice. I am comfortable knowing that Jesus bears my yoke, and I am NOT a member of a false religion which finds its members questioning daily their salvation, or anguishing if their "freewill" has cost them a place in heaven. I am very comfortable knowing that my belief in Christ was made possible by Him FIRST bringing His Holy Spirit to dwell in me.

The very reason we have these debates over "how do I know if I am saved" is because of Satan. It is Satan who creates the false doctrines of works, which once again attemps to diminish the power of the Cross, and place the responsibility of Salvation on sinful men who are incaple. The Bible tells us that man is unworthy of eternal life, and that he does not seek God, and that he lives under a curse, yet through false teaching, Satan teaches that such a man can set aside such things, and "accept" a perfect, and Holy Saviour. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Bible clearly tells us that man, being the sin soaked wretch he is, is incapable of willing himself out of the curse of death placed on him in the Garden. It is only through a merciful , and perfect God that such a curse can be lifted, and life regenerated.

One of the most simple, yet telling bits of Scripture, is Paul the Apostles adress to the saints in Ephesus, where in the first sentence he says ........"Paul , an Apostle of Christ Jesus, by the will of God". Paul does not say , "by my will", or by "freewill", but rather Paul says, by God's WILL. It is the pride of man that allows him to be decieved, but I tell you now as I am called, that it is Jesus Christ whose will, will be done, and that is why He is the Great Comforter.........Praise be to Christ Jesus who reigns on High!

Shalom!

Bill McNeal,

I submit sir, that you proclaim an element of truth while at the same time including error. Jesus Christ died on the Cross of Calvary for the entirety of humanity:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

What does the word "whosoever" say to you? It says to me the same thing as the world "all" in:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote:

Romans 10: [9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Clearly, man must repent and call upon the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.

It is also clear that the Holy Spirt did not indwell anybody until they were first saved.

Acts 2:[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The complete thought in this passage is "Repent and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Repentance is a requirement for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible also says "...God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." If God elected/predestined a certain group of people to die and go to hell, then it would be contradictory to His word. That is not to say He has not hardened the hearts of specific individuals and as a result they have died in their sins and will spend an eternity in Hell apart from God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


Bill Lamb

[Chris wilson]

Job 36:2-12
Ezekial 14:6
Ezekial 18: 29-31
Matthew 3:1-3
Matthew 4:17
Mark 1:14
Luke 5:31
Luke 13:2-3
Luke 24:46-48
Acts 17:29-31

[Cueball]

Thank you for doing the leg work and posting my thoughts.

Whosoever includes all man kind.

None shall perish. Says it all.



................................................Ro by..............................

[Cueball]

I would assume that most of you know that Cato post many of these post with the intent to hopefully grab the attention of some who might be sitting the fence. That is not to say that we can't take them and debate them as much as we want. Just know that we have non-christian brothers and sister that frequent our site often.



................................................Ro by.......................................

[Bill McNeal]

Bill Lamb, while I agree that from a man created denominational/religous view-point my comments are seen as incorrect, from a Biblical standpoint every statement I made about what Jesus said is correct, and plainly written in His Holy Writ. It is not my contension to change the minds of those caught up in the false teaching of the man created "free-will" doctrine, for such revelation must come from the Wisdom of the Holy Spirit.

However, it is well within my charge to privately, and publicly rebuke such teaching. The 'freewill" doctrine, like all other doctrines that deny the Sovereign powers of Christ Jesus are the creation of satan, used to decieve the world that this Saviours Blood is somehow inefficient to save, and it attempts to cast the Church back prior to Golgotha, back to the curse of the law, in which they are bound to deeds,...tithes, fasts, sacrifes, offerings, and so forth to be made righteous. This is why groups that teach the false doctrine of "freewill" today, attempt to yoke Christians saved by Grace with old testament rituals of 7th day sabbaths, tithes, special holy men {senior pastors, priests, reverends, popes}, and stone tablet worship. Sadly many of the so called Christian Churches today do not relect the Biblical model of the New Testament Church laid out for us in the book of Acts, and the Epistles, but rather they reflect the beggarly elements of a Levitical priesthood.

Amazingly these "freewill" groups will state publicly the Scriptures which will point to Gods power, and pray to God, saying "everything is in your hands", then turn around and say that salvation is contingent upon something they do. As if God, would step down from Heaven to die for sinful mans acts, and inability to earn salvation for himself, then after dieing, place the responsibility back on man for his salvation. This is the paradox of false doctrine, for it does not, nor can it ever mesh with the Truth of God. Besides human pride, perphaps the biggest roadblock to understandinging the Word of God rests in the fact that most Christians have little, or no understanding of Biblical record. While many will trot out scriptures taken out of context, or quote the time honored favorites taught to them by the hired clergy of their various denominations to bolster the "church doctrine", very few men immerse themselves into Gods Word looking for His Truth.

A classic example of this, is Bill Lambs following comment........."""It is also clear that the Holy Spirt did not indwell anybody until they were first saved."""


Now, on the surface, this may appear as a biblical truth, but under examination of Scripture, it is exposed as being "untrue", because it removes the very need for Jesus Christ, for if one can be saved without the Holy Spirit interceding , then Christs work on the Cross is invain, however Thankfully it is not, and it is Christs agent, His Holy Spirit which fills us , allowing belief to be possible. One need only look at the Christian conversions we see recorded by Luke in the Book of the Acts.
Here we find an angry, and murderous Saul heading to Damascus to persecute the Church of Christ. Bent on murder, Saul is First incapitated by Jesus, then Jesus sends a man to Saul to lay hands on him, telling him, that Saul "Is My Chosen Instrument" and upon laying hands upon Saul, he is "filled with the Holy Spirit". It was then that Scripture tells us that the scales were removed from Pauls eyes, and he was able to see the truth of Jesus Christ, to call Him Lord, and to become as Paul said "a prisoner of the Gospel". This is what Jesus meant when He told Nicodemus that "he who believes, will not perish". For a man who has had God reveal Himself to him, is incapable of dis-belief. Paul simply could not help to believe in Jesus, because Jesus entered him, and became part of him. It was only through the Holy Spirit filling Paul that he was able to confess, repent, and call on the Name of Jesus in belief.
Every New Testament conversion we see also shows the Holy Spirit paving the way for belief. its there for the reading.

The false teaching of modern day "christianity" would have you believe that Paul could have said "take a hike Jesus, I got christians to arrest". The amazing thing about Pauls tale is that we see Gods perfect election at work. Here God chooses an ex-murder to suffer for him, and take the Gospel to those who knew him as a murderer. Paul had no choice, for he was created for this purpose, just as Pharoah was created for his. THIS is the SOVEREIGN POWER of Jesus Christ. This is HIS FREE WILL. A will not thwarted by men, but rather a Will that He pre-planned. It's not a game that God is playing, as some religous people who oppose Gods Sovereignty would charge, but rather it is His ALL about His Will, and His Good Pleasure.

The words "free-will" never appear in the Gospel accounts of Christ Jesus, the Acts of the Apostles, the instructions to the Church, or the Revelators book. They are simply a creation of a society which has re-written the rules, and boundries to appease their lifestyles. From Satans view-point the "freewill" doctrine attempts to weaken the Power of the Lamb, and from mans view-point, it allows them 'elbow room", and the ability to work things on their timetable, for the "freewill" doctrine sets the stage for postponing salvation until they are ready. It also allows the peace of mind of thinking {falsely I might add} that our loved ones, family and friends can simply "accept" Jesus, and be saved . Sadly such doctrine cannot explain away why God said in Second Peter 2:12, that certain men were created to be destroyed. The desire to alter the percieved harshness of Gods Will by changing it, still does not change Gods Will.

So in closing I will simply say that it is my prayer that God would open the eyes of those who believe that their will earns salvation, and allow them to rest gently in His arms, for if a man believes he has the power to will himself into salvation, then he must also assume that he has the power to will himself out of salvation if he so chooses. That however is meat for another topic.

Shalom

[Esquire]

Bill McNeal,

Thank you for your response to my expressed concerns, and for taking them in the spirit in which they were intended.

In partial response to your latest post, I would say that free will exists even though the term itself may not appear in the bible. We sometimes create a name to identify a concept that exists in the bible, for the purpose of identification. An example that comes to my mind would be the Word "Trinity." It is not a word that appears in the bible, as the Jehovah's Witnesses are quick to point out. Yet it expresses a fundamental scriptural understanding about the character of God.

It still seems to me that if you completely write off the part we have to play, you damage the whole truth of God's desire to have a meaningful relationship with every person.

However, there is much that we agree upon, and I appreciate your presence on these threads.

Bill Lamb,

You expressed, with simplicity and eloquence, something that is so fundamentally important, in my view. Thanks.

Chris Wilson,

You are forcing us to go to the source. Thanks, I prefer that. I admit to being too busy to look up these scriptures since you posted them, but I plan to review them today. Biblegateway and a dsl are helpful tools for quick reference work!

Mike

[Cueball]

I know you posted the scriptures for us to look them up. But the first one really hit the nail on the head.

Job 36:2-12
2"Wait for me a little, and I will show you
That there is yet more to be said in God's behalf.

3"I will fetch my knowledge from afar,
And I will ascribe (A)righteousness to my Maker.

4"For truly (B)my words are not false;
One who is (C)perfect in knowledge is with you.

5"Behold, God is mighty but does not (D)despise any;
He is (E)mighty in strength of understanding.

6"He does not (F)keep the wicked alive,
But gives justice to (G)the afflicted.

7"He does not (H)withdraw His eyes from the righteous;
But (I)with kings on the throne
He has seated them forever, and they are exalted.

8"And if they are bound in fetters,
And are caught in the cords of (J)affliction,

9Then He declares to them their work
And their transgressions, that they have (K)magnified themselves.

10"(L)He opens their ear to instruction,
And (M)commands that they return from evil.

11"If they hear and serve Him,
They will (N)end their days in prosperity
And their years in (O)pleasures.

12"But if they do not hear, they shall perish (P)by the sword
And they will (Q)die without knowledge.


This is not out of context. If you think it is then feel free to read the book of Job front to back. If this doesn not indicate mans will to chose then I don't know how it can be more clearly put.


........................................Roby...... ....................

God was the same prior to Christ death and resurection and the same after. If the rules changed after death then you would think Jesus would have clearly pointed this out.

[Bill McNeal]

Esquire, the awesome thing about Gods Sovereign Will is that man DOES play a role, however mans role has always been limited to conform to Gods end. This is why God can so boldly predict the outcome of His Desires, and boldly proclaim to His Bride that He knew her, and her heart before He Created the World.

The falseness of the "freewill" doctrine is, that if examined closely, it suggests that the Gospel is held hostage by the whim of mankind, and it's outcome will be shaped by mans will. The Good News {pun intended} is that we know different. We know that God says He knew that we who are His, were His back before there was ever a planet. Thats why God is an AWESOME God!!!!!. God Knew that Pharoah would let His people go. God knew that Job would perservere. God knew that Peter would be the Rock. God knew that the Christian killer Saul would one day instruct His Bride. we play the roles God casts us in.

Roby, my friend, the tale of our brother Job is perhaps one of Gods greatest examples of His Sovereign Power, and Will. To point to Job as being an example of mans "freewill" is to error. You see, we must first understand that prior to turning Job over to Satan, God tells us that Job is His "servant", a " blameless ", and "upright man". Simply put, God tells us that Job was saved. He was an old testament saint.

You see for Gods Good Pleasure, He turned over Job to Satan knowing full well the outcome of the story. It was God who suggested to satan that he try to pick on Job, {Job 1:8} simply to make a fool out of satan, because God knew Jobs heart {Creators have that ability}, and He knew that satan could never win over someone who had already been sealed for eternal life as Job had been. Granted Job suffered much, and had some crazy thoughts, but did anyone really doubt God?. Does anyone think God would make a challenge that He would lose?. God challenged satan, and the prideful beast went for it, and God came out on top as always. I think Job said it best in the last chapter of the book........."""Then Job replied to the Lord: I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted""". Job knew the Sovereign Power of God!!!

Shalom.

[WildmanSC]

"The falseness of the "freewill" doctrine is, that if examined closely, it suggests that the Gospel is held hostage by the whim of mankind, and it's outcome will be shaped by mans will. The Good News {pun intended} is that we know different. We know that God says He knew that we who are His, were His back before there was ever a planet. Thats why God is an AWESOME God!!!!!. God Knew that Pharoah would let His people go. God knew that Job would perservere. God knew that Peter would be the Rock. God knew that the Christian killer Saul would one day instruct His Bride. we play the roles God casts us in."

Bill McNeal,

The problem with your premise is that you are endeavoring to have a discussion about a Sovereign God in the realm of man's time scale. God operates on a totally different time scale than man does.

Because of His Omniscience, Omnipotence and Omnipresence, He IS yesterday, today and tomorrow, man's time scale, all at the same time. Because of His Omniscience, He knew before He created the heavens and the earth that Adam and Eve would fall and introduce sin to man, that Christ would have to come to earth from Heaven and die upon the Old Rugged Cross of Calvary, who would respond to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, repent of their sins, and in response to the command of scriptures ask Christ to cleanse their blackened, sin stained hearts with His precious blood and to come into their hearts and save them.

As for the Holy Spirit?

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

And as for salvation?

Rom 10: 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
I Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1 Cor 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1 Cor 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The Word of God speaks much more loudly and directly than I could ever endeavor.

Bill

[Cueball]

Bill Lamb, I have really enjoyed your post on this subject. As you said so well in the post prior God's word speaks for itself it needs nothing added or explain who could be so foolish to think that i could add to Gods word.


Bill McNeal, I think you know I have a great deal of respect for you my brother. We will have to disagree on this one. However just one thought one of the things that I see in this post is many many scriptures that back up free will. I know there are a few that back up predestination but like I mentioned in the start of this post argurments made by me, Bill Lamb, you whoever don't carry the weight that the word of God does.
Although we disagree on this I would still want you in my foxhole. :)



.............................Roby................. ..............
:bow2: :jesus: :bow2:

[BLACK WOLF]

If the word "freewill" is used within the Bible, wouldn't that be an indication that freewill does in fact exist?

The word "freewill" is used within the Bible about 22 times.

In each instance the word "freewill" appears within the Bible, a form of the word "offering" is also used.

Will - used to express desire, choice, willingness, consent, or a refusal.

Freewill - done of your own accord

Freewill Offering - an offering done of a person's own accord

In my heart I know there is nothing ANYONE can do without God first ALLOWING it to be possible. I believe God can soften or harden a man's heart, but I don't believe He will control it unless that man gives his heart over to our Lord. Therefore, every man is faced with the same or simular choices, and no man is kept from believeing in God if he wants to.

Life could not exist without our Almighty Creator first creating it. God has set the rules and boundaries and no man or being can create or take away from what already has been put into place.

God created man to form an intimate and loving relationship that could be shared and experienced by both. For a relationship to exist involves action. Faith without works is dead or you can look at it this way…a relationship without action is dead. A great relationship revolves around love, which involves self sacrifice, commitment, trust, faith and joy to name a few. We can achieve righteousness by choosing to believe, but that wouldn’t be possible unless God first made it possible. It is by the grace and love of God, He sent His only begotten Son to be a sacrifice for our sins. God commands us to make a choice and God created life so that it would be full of choices.

We don’t become righteous by keeping the law of the Bible. We become righteous by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and than choosing to believe. It is always God first and than we choose to follow or disobey. Because of our sinful nature we can not always be obedient, but just as any child is capable of, we can be obedient from time to time and receive the joy of our Lord.

God created the need for us to seek Him, by giving us freewill and consequences. Without them life would be merely a puppet show.

Rev 3:20 "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."

Why does God need to knock at our door if He is controlling us?

Because He wants US to be the one's who opens the door...not Him. God wants US to make the choice. God has already chosen to give us each the opportunity to open the door...some do...some don't.

The Holy Spirit comes knocking. He doesn't force His way into a man's heart. The door God is knocking is opened when a man chooses to believe. Than the Holy Spirit shall come in a make His home there.

True love is chosen freely...it isn't forced.

God has created life with consequences and He disciplines us with those consequences. God's purpose in discipline is not to punish, but to bring people back to Him. The Holy Spirit is constantly knocking at the door to our hearts through His consequences, His creation, His Word, His truth and His miracles.

Jesus reveals Himself to everyone as explained in this verse - Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Hmmmm...men are without excuse...surely a man would have an excuse if the only way they could receive salvation was if God only chose to reveal Himself to a select few...but the Bible clearly states that we are ALL without excuse and He has revealed Himself to us ALL.

The word "disobedience" should be a clue.

How can anyone disobey God if God is completely controlling them and their choices?

You can't...unless God first gave us the choice to do so. If God disciplines and punishes those that disobey Him, than that should be an indication that we are held responsible for our choices freely which were given freely.

When I use the word "freely" it carries with it the price that Jesus paid for our sins. God knew there would be a price to pay for ALLOWING us to make choices, which would end up in disobedience and sin.

Jesus had to die first before we could receive salvation. God had to exist first before we could believe in Him, which makes that part easy because God has always existed. It is ALWAYS God first and than our choice to believe.

Deuteronomy 30:19 "This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live”

This is the Word of God spoken through Moses. Jesus is the Word. Jesus is life. We must choose to believe in Him.

A man believes through faith. A man can be drawn towards God through His persistent knocking with His creation, His consequences, His discipline, His Word, His truth and His miracles.

Anytime someone chooses not to believe in God, he is in essence saying "go away" and how many non-believers have you shared the Gospel with and they have turned away or stayed convicted in denying the truth?

God is constantly knocking at our door with persistence and patience – not breaking and entering as you would have us and the people you preach to believe.

What is written can not be changed. God knows ALL that believe and He knows ALL that won't...nothing can change that. The Book of Life has been written.

In order for anyone to begin to understand creation, predestination and having choices, they have to understand what it means to be omnipresent.

I definitely believe God sent His only begotten Son to be a sacrifice for non-believers, because I was once one of those people as I know many others were too.

Ray :cool:

[Bill McNeal]

Bill Lamb, lets examine the Scripture you use to support your premise that men can be saved without the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. You quoted........

"""Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."""

Lets look at Luke 11:13, however let us look at it in context. The 11th chapter finds Jesus speaking of prayer to His chosen disciples. For you see He is instructing them on the proper use of prayer, at their request, telling them that since they belong to a Father, that no prayer will go unheard, but more important Bill, He is simply telling them to pray for the Holy Spirit which has YET to come. You see Bill, at that time Jesus is still a man, and Pentacost has not arrived. What you are trying to do is to suggest that the Apostles had already recieved salvation, when in fact at that point they had simple been called. The coming of the Holy Spirit is the agent of Salvation, which leads to justification, and glorification. The Old Testament saints like Abraham,Issac, david, Moses, Job, and so forth, though predestined for salvation, were cleansed retroactively through the Blood of Christ, which set the stage for the coming of the Holy Ghost. This is why the Risen Christ Jesus told the disciples the following, right before ascension.........

"""I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”""

The "power" Christ speaks of is, the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, Jesus Himself would have been incapable of the miracles He preformed, and he plainly says so in the Gospels. Without the Holy Spirit the Apostles would be rendered useless as administers of the Gospel, and we see they power granted them on the day of Pentacost.

Also Bill, I should point out that it was Jesus Christ who chose His twelve disciples,..."""You did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you to go and bear bear fruit-fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name"""

I point this out because here we plainly see that it was Jesus who chose, and appointed his people to duty, and here we Jesus clearly explaining to them, that it is through Him that their prayers are answered. It was the will of Jesus Christ that allowed the disciples to pray to God and ask for what Jesus had already promised them.

Lets examine Eph 1-13. Once again, by taking a verse of Scripture out of context, it can be manipulated to almost any end. This is why I teach that reading an entire chapter, or book is the proper way to attempt an understanding of the word. Lets read the verse in context, shall we?........

"""Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints in Ephesus,the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will– to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment–to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory."""

Sounds a little different when read in context, doesn't it? Actually first chapter Ephesians is shall we say not the most popular chapter in the main-stream "freewill" churches in America. You see here we find God plainly saying that He chose the Church, that He predestined them, that it was known by Him before creation, and that it was for His Good Will, and Pleasure. To attempt to make a "freewill" arguement out of verse 13 just does not add up.

Lets break it down ..."and you also were included in Christ"....my question is, does one include ones self?. Verse 11 clearly states that Christians are "chosen"????. Lets continue..........."when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation." This is a very important Scripture for us to examine. Who is Paul addressing here? Is he suggesting that anyone who simply reads the Gospel will become "included with Christ" ????. I think not, for you see, God has already pointed out who will be included in Christ. Now, since we know that Paul tells us in other letters that the Gospel is hidden to those who are perishing, who then is the Gospel made clear to???.....Lets continue........."Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit."""

This beloved is the issue. Those who support mans sovereignty over his salvation {freewill} will try and use this scripture to suggest that "belief" must first happen before one can recieve the Holy Ghost, while completely ignoring all the conversions recorded in the Bible, While completeing ignoring the Scripture that says ..."""The man without the Spirit does not accept things that come from the Spirit of God""" 1Cor 2-13, argueing that man is indeed capable of believing in matters of God, without first having the Spirit of Jesus Christ in them, thus suggesting that they themselves are capable of granting their own salvation, and suggesting that after they save themselves, they are then filled with the Holy Spirit. While completely ignoring
scripture that says that God chooses, that God has mercy, that God hardens, that God saves, and that God destroys.

Beloved, we must remember that every group, or sect that stands opposed to Christ Jesus teaches that man is his own saviour. That it is man who wills himself into heaven by something he says, or does, or thinks, or believes. This my friends is why the main stream American Church is corrupt, and apostic. It has created for itself its own religion where the Holy Ghost of Jesus Christ is seen as little more than a side bar to their deed won salvation.

A "church" where men have shifted from accountablity to Jesus Christ, to making one another accountable to hired "holy men" who preach a false prosperity gospel where "faith" is measured by how much money is "given", where stone tablet worship supercedes the two great commands of Jesus Christ, and where the Gospel truth, and Sovereign Power of the Lord Jesus Christ is watered down to fit the man pleasing agenda of the so called church planters who plant the seeds of tares, and false hope.

Is it not odd that the most fast growing "Churches" are the ones that teach that Jesus Christ is not God, that Old Testament rituals justify, that man is bound to Mosiac covenants, that man is his own salvation agent, that the Holy Spirit is diluted, or none existant? Is it not odd that these "Churches" proclaim men as their leaders, calling them "reverends", "masters", and "fathers"???

"""""""""Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don't know you or where you come from.’

“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

“But he will reply, ‘I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’ """""""""""

Shalom

[Bill McNeal]

Ray, my friend, you quoted the following to support your "freewill" doctrine


"""Rev 3:20 "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.""""

As I have posted earlier, you, like others have taken a scripture out of context to support your doctrine. Let us examine the scripture in context. You see Ray, your error is that you use Rev 3-20 to suggest that Jesus "knocks" on the hearts of non-believers to get them to open up. What you fail to realize Ray, is that if you were to have read the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelations as a whole, you would realize that Jesus was addressing CHRISTIAN CHURCHES. Rev 3-20 is Christs admonishment of the Laodicean church Ray, not a plea to non-believers to "open the door"

You see Ray, this is how false teaching becomes proliferated. A pastor mis-interprets, scripture like Christs adomishment to the Church in Revelations, suggesting that it is a call for non-believers to "accept" Him, and those weak in Bible knowledge book mark it as a go to quote, and hence we can literally have hundreds, if not thousands of people quoting scriptures that are misconstrued. I would ask you to go back, and re-read the first 3 chapters of Revelations Ray, and when you see that Christ is indeed addressing a Saved Body of Christians, { In fact, He addresses 7 Bodies of Believers}, I then suggest that you go back and re-read the other quotes you posted to support "freewill", and ask yourself that if you misunderstood the Revelation Scripture, could you be wrong about others?

Not picking on you, just suggesting some things.

Shalom

[Bill McNeal]

Also ray, could you please provide Scripture that says that "The Holy Spirit comes knocking" ????

Thanks, and Shalom!

[Bill McNeal]

This question is for those who believe in "freewill"........Why is a non believer, a non believer???

Shalom

[Esquire]

I have always considered the story of the woman at the well to be a beautiful picture of the freedom available to each and every person.

Here it is, in part, from John Ch. 4, qouted in the NIV, with my own bold text added to highlight certain portions.

7When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?” 8(His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)

9The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=john%204&version=31#fen-NIV-26156a)])

10Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

11“Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?”

13Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

__________________________________________________ ______________________________

[WildmanSC]

"Lets look at Luke 11:13, however let us look at it in context. The 11th chapter finds Jesus speaking of prayer to His chosen disciples. For you see He is instructing them on the proper use of prayer, at their request, telling them that since they belong to a Father, that no prayer will go unheard, but more important Bill, He is simply telling them to pray for the Holy Spirit which has YET to come. You see Bill, at that time Jesus is still a man, and Pentacost has not arrived. What you are trying to do is to suggest that the Apostles had already recieved salvation, when in fact at that point they had simple been called. The coming of the Holy Spirit is the agent of Salvation, which leads to justification, and glorification. The Old Testament saints like Abraham,Issac, david, Moses, Job, and so forth, though predestined for salvation, were cleansed retroactively through the Blood of Christ, which set the stage for the coming of the Holy Ghost. This is why the Risen Christ Jesus told the disciples the following, right before ascension........."

Bill McNeal,

You conveniently point out that this was prior to Pentacost, but then you ignore the fact that it IS STILL during the Abrahamic Covenant period. Under the Abrahamic Covenant, God chose men to lead the nation of Israel. Some were great leaders, some were terrible leaders. In His Omniscience, God knew before He created the Heavens and the Earth which leaders would be great leaders and which would be terrible leaders, yet due to His Omniscience He predestined them to be leaders. Likewise, Christ chose his 12 disciples to follow Him, that He might teach them and prepare them to be the Apostles for the early church.

Once again, as the Creator, His Omniscience allowed Him to know that Judas would turn Him over to the soldiers, yet He predestined Him to be a disciple. Likewise, He predestined Paul to be an Apostle to replace Judas and to be the greatest missionary in the history of the church.

But then after Pentecost, the Church Age came into being. Because of His foreknowledge, resulting from His Omniscience, God predistined that Jesus would come down to Earth, would be born of a virgin, would die on the Old Rugged Cross of Calvary and would rise again on the third day. Then after He arose into Heaven, the Holy Spirit came down upon the Apostles/disciples who already were believers, and as you stated already saved, and in great power they preached and thousands were saved.

There is one clear element of distinction in the operation of the Holy Spirit between the Abrahamic Covenant and the Church age. During the Abrahamic Covenant, the Holy Spirit came down upon men, but He never filled them, that is to say He never entered them. He came upon them and gave them the power to accomplish the will of God. It is very similar in the chruch age with one clear distinction. The Holy Spirit will come upon the lost person and bring conviction after he or she hears the preaching of the gospel of Christ Jesus and Him crucified. However, He will not FILL them until they believe and are saved.

Bill

[BLACK WOLF]

Bill McNeal,

I've come to realize over the years that you haven't changed your belief concerning "freewill" as I have not.

I also see you are still quick to say that someone who disagrees with you is taking scripture out of context, teaching false doctrine, has failed or is weak in Bible knowledge.

I try and refuse saying things like that anymore because it reveals the arrogance that is indicated within those words.

I have no problem discussing the mysteries of the Bible with anyone and I will continue to discuss this for those that are hanging on the fence, but for those of us that are set in their beliefs and disagree...we will sound like clanging cymbals if we choose to use words such as some of the phrases you have used because someone is disagreeing with you.

In response to your first response to my post....Yes, Christ is indeed addressing a Saved Body of Christians...so than why does God still need to knock at their doors???

You asked - "could you please provide Scripture that says that "The Holy Spirit comes knocking" ????"

If you believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one than any time one addresses something the other 2 are there in some form or another.

So to answer your question when Rev 3:20 says "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock.", I am, is refering to God and God is made up of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit...therefore the Holy Spirit is with "I am" when He is knocking.

You asked - "Why is a non believer, a non believer???"

It boils down to a choice. God FIRST created man in His image and filled his life with choices and freedom within the parameters that He ALLOWED. He also created life to be fruitful and multiply ALLOWING us to pass our genetic codes onto our offspring. A child born and raised in a pagan family will most likely grow up to be pagan, but as we know that is not always the case. WHY??? Because of the freedom of choice that God gave us and the sacrifice He made. We are who we are because God first created man as he did and than ALLOWED us to make our own choices. We are products of God, our family, our life experiences and our choices.

I also agree with what WildmanSC, Esquire and a couple others are saying...great posts guys!

Your brother in Christ,

Ray

[WildmanSC]

"This question is for those who believe in "freewill"........Why is a non believer, a non believer???"

Bill McNeal,

According to the doctrine you are espousing, the Hyper Calvinist doctrine, man is chosen by God to be saved and he comes to believe the gospel and is saved AFTER the Holy Spirit enters him. My question of you, Mr. McNeal, is if he comes to believe AFTER the Holy Spirit comes in, as you espouse, then does that not mean he is a non-believer BEFORE the "Holy Spirit enters him"?

Frankly, Mr. McNeal, all are sinners (Rom 3:23), all have earned the wage of death (Rom 6:23), but praise the Lord, Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

What does "whosoever" mean to you, Mr. McNeal. Based upon your doctrine, I suppose it means "whomever God choses to call upon the name of the Lord..." It is sad to know that you limit the power of God with that doctrine. You claim that the "freewill" believers are limiting His power. However, it is actually just the opposite. It is those who comprehend the full depth and meaning of His Omniscience that understand its contribution to foreknowledge, predestination and election. The real question is who casts the vote? One final question, is grace irresistable?

Bill

[WildmanSC]

A few thoughts on Hyper Calvinism.

1. What choice was made? specific individuals? Or the means by which the salvation would be secured?

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The key thought in these verses is in Rom 8:29. It is the key to understanding predestination. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son..." His Omniscience enabled Him to "foreknow" before the heavens and the earth were created who would believe and be saved and He did predestinate them by His Omnipotence. The foreknowledge, however, came BEFORE the predestination.

2. God is not a respector of persons.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Clearly, God is not a respecter of persons. If He predestined all who would be saved by name, He would be in violation of His Word. God does not contradict His Word.

3. God does not will that any perish but that all be saved.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

I Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Clearly, it is NOT God's will that ANY should perish, but rather, that all should come to repentance (and be saved).

4. Predestination would make the Devil no enemy for the chosen to be worried about.

I Pet 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Why beware of the Devil, if you are predestined?

Food for thought.

Bill

[larry]

I find this to be a very good thread, and I also firmly believe that an individual should search these matters and have a conviction in there hearts based upon the scriptures. it is good when brothers call one another to search the Scriptures in Christian love.

I especially love the first chapter of Ephesians, did you notice how many times the phrase,"to the praise of His glorious grace" was stated? Oh what a mighty God we serve.

Bill, you asked if grace was irrisistable, I would answer that by asking you if Gods will can be thwarted?

larry

1 Peter 3-5

to God be the glory

[BLACK WOLF]

Can Gods will can be thwarted?

No...but you first must understand what God's will is.

Is it God's will to control, puppeteer or force a man to not believe and than punish him for it?

or

Is it God's will to set boundries, laws, rules and/or guildlines in place so that man is ALLOWED to make choices freely so that an intimate and loving relationship can be chosen instead of forced or denied?

Ray

[larry]

well, I don't believe that God forces one to disbelieve, it's the totality of the depth of mans sinfull heart that causes disbelief.


I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case, His grace was wholly irresistible, and mere words and deeds will never be able to fully express the joy and gratitude in my heart for that grace displayed in Christ Jesus. when God truely reveals His mercy, love, forgiveness and grace that is found in our Lord, when God reveals to a man that he is incomplete without Him, that he was created for fellowship with Him, when He shows to him that his sins have alienated him from the one that created him, when He reveals to him that his sins shall be removed from him as far as the east is from the west, that they will be remembered no more......... and that He loves me with an everlasting love....no, no, my bretheren, it was not possible for me to resist the blessed grace of God.



And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in whichyou once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforhand that we should walk in them.
(Ephesians 2; 1-10)


thank you , oh thank you, my Lord and my God

larry

[Cueball]

This thread had been very very informative. The good news to me is that no matter saved is saved. I believe in free will and this study has strengthened my convictions in that belief. But my christian brother who believe in predestiantion are saved the same as me. Like I said in an earlier post I am not so arrogant to think that i want arrive on the steps of heaven and realize I have mis understood quite a few versus but one I haven't missed is John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and who so ever shall believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life."


...............................................Rob y..........................................
:bow2: :jesus: :bow2:

[BLACK WOLF]

There can only be 2 scenarios.

Either we have a choice or we don't.

Either we play a roll in our salvation or we don't.

There can only be truth or lies...fact or fiction.

If God doesn't force us by the way He created us than He has created us to be able to make choices without Him having direct control over which choices we personally choose.

If a created being isn't given a choice than it's choice is controlled or made by it's creator.

Just as Cueball has said - my christian brother who believes in predestiantion is saved the same as me.

I believe in both freewill and predestination. Once you understand an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God, the 2 exist without contradicting one another.

Ray

Ray

[Camp Cook]

Where to start - or finish....

I am a very simple person. While I really enjoy I good discussion of the scriptures, I have no desire to delve into semantics and splitting of hairs. On some things it is just better to agree to disagree.

I think these discussions can be healthy for our spiritual growth but that we need to be careful as well and ask ourselves...Is God well pleased? Is he honored? Is whats being said being done so in a manner that will draw people to Him?

I believe there is truth on both sides of this argument. I agree that the Holy Spirit does the "quickening" but if it is all the work of the Holy Spirit, why is the great commision even in the Bible? If we are all predestined to the point that we have no choice in the matter then why are we even here? Why doesn't God just take us all home now? Why are we to pray for the lost? God foreknows, yes, but we don't. If there is no free will then, why doesn't the Father take us home the minute we recognize the Holy Spirit working?

Years ago I had a very close friend who was cleary seeking God. We had many a discussion of spiritual things. But when it came right down to giving her life over to Jesus.....she said no. She had too many things in her life that she KNEW were wrong and she didn't want to give them up. She respected me for my faith but refused it for herself. We lost touch several years ago now. To my knowledge, she has never come to Christ & I really believe her heart to be hardened. ANd it breaks my heart to know where she will spend eternity....but it was her CHOICE to reject Christ. It was very evident the Holy Spirit was working on her but she turned her back.

I think we need to be careful that we don't become like the Rabbi's arguing the Torah. I can't tell you how many times that I have been in conversations with people when I am asked "Why is that christians are always arguing?" It hurts. I have cried many a tear when I frequented the other site & saw thread after thread reduced to anything but godly. Ephesians tells us that we are to "speak the truth in love". When we do that, we will draw men to Christ through our words & deeds.

I would encourage each of us to examine our hearts & our attitudes & ask ourselves...am I drawing people to HIM or turning the away from HIM?

I would also add, that I am very thankful to belong to a church that preaches the word. I have attended many different churches over the years in many different towns & states, I am thankful that I have never encountered the type of "church" that Mr. McNeal describes. I know they are out there....I think many of them have TV shows which is why I don't watch TBN. But they have not been in my experience.

[BLACK WOLF]

Camp Cook,

I completely agree.

Ray

[Bill McNeal]

First off folks, I need to point out a few things. As for this "Calvinism" nonsense. I am not a "Calvinist". I have never read the writings of Calvin, nor have I any desire to do so. I know that his nname is linked with the "predestination" doctrine, but that is about it. I am a minister of Jesus Christ.

I was not raised in an American Church. As I said before, I was reborn into Christ less than 4 years ago. I did not enter my first assembly with the saints until I was 40 years old. You see, I am unincumbered by the false teaching of manmade doctrine, because I truely believe that that was Gods purpose. Not having to defend the doctrine of a denomination, or shore up religous doctrines, and rituals that many are raised in, allows me to discharge the duties of my ministry without bias, or fear of displeasing men, family and friends.

Beloved, I know all too well that what I teach will be more often than not met with venom, for the pride of tradition is strong with men, just as the chief priests, and pharisees of the day, the modern religous leaders have, and will come against all those who attempt to preach the simple, and pure beauty of Christs New Covenant. I know all too well that the Bible is correct when it says that men will put aside the Truth of the Gospel, in return to have their ears pleasured.

So I figured I'd just point this out , and state to those who try to lock me into a denomination, doctrine, cult, sect, or whatever, that I am just a lowly pilgrim, on Gods road, called to minister to those who the world rejects, but He treasures. I Church with my family, and a few friends in a home enviroment, where we praise Jesus Christ, and practice "unto onenother". No Baptist, methodist, calvinist, lutheran, catholic, presbyter, pentacostal, charismatic, or any of the silly names that people place before Gods Bride.

I am an adopted son of Jesus Christ, plain and simple.

Shalom!

[Bill McNeal]

Bill Lamb, actuall Matthias was the replacement for Juda, not Paul. Paul was Chosen as Apostle to the Gentiles, and all the world.

Anyway Bill, since its obvious you are going to cling to the premise that man is first a believer in Jesus Christ, before Jesus Christ comes into them, you then have to address the timeline situation Bill. What is the time elapsed between being a believer in Jesus Christ, and actually having the Spirit Of Christ come into you. Is it minutes, days, weeks, years????. We know that the Bible tells us that there was a time lapse between the Cross, and Pentacost, but know that Pentacost has come, what is that timeline Bill.

Are you suggesting that many of the Church instructions we see given in Corinth, Ephesus, Galatia, and so forth could have been given to people who were void of the Holy Spirit?, or waiting for it?

In the book of the Acts we see the Holy Spirit first entering Saul of Tarsaus, then we see the scales fall from his eyes, then we see him baptized, and then he rested. A few days later the Bible says "at once he began to preach", and we know the rest of the story. So Bill, while we see a clear post Pentacost Biblical conversion, in which the Holy Spirit first fills Paul, are you suggesting that Paul was capable of being a believer first?. Are you suggesting that Saul had the ability to say while on route to Damascus that "you know, I think I'll believe in Jesus, so He will give me the Holy Spirit, so I can help Christians, instead of killing them". ????

What about the other post pentacost conversions we see in which the Holy Spirit is present upon conversion?. Are these wrong Bill. Are you saying the Ethiopian could have become a believer without the Holy Spirit coming unto him?. What about the Jailer Bill? Was it his choice to believe on his own, or was it the Holy Spirit which shook the daylights out of his jail, coupled with the gospel preached by Paul, and Silas???

What about Lydia Bill?. The Bible tells us that that the Lords Holy Spirit "opened her heart to respond to Pauls message". Also in Lydias conversion we see her say this after her heart was opened by the Spirit...."If you consider me a believer in the Lord, come and stay at my house".......Luke then goes on to say that theu were persuaded by her. You see Bill, Lydia did not first profess to be a believer, then have her heart opened by Christs Spirit, but rather the Bible says the complete opposite.

Also Bill, you need to address the following scripture found in Pauls first letter to the saints in Corinth........."""We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: “For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ"""

You see Bill, your doctrine does not mesh with the Biblical teaching of Paul who clearly tells the Church that a man who lacks the Holy Spirit, can never understand, or accept things of a Spiritual nature, yet here we find you Bill, teaching that a man can be void of the Holy Spirit, yet be a believer in Christ Jesus????. Could you explain that Bill?. Are you saying that although Paul says a man void of the Spirit, is incapable of accepting things of the Spirit, that he can believe in Spiritual things without having the Spirit? Please clarify.

One last thing Bill. If a man can be a believer in Jesus Christ as you claim without having Jesus Christ in Him, why then the need for the Holy Spirit?. If Christ died for the worlds sins, and if man can believe on his own, then why have a Holy Spirit?

Shalom

[Bill McNeal]

Camp Cook, the people of Christ are under a great charge. While we are called to preach the word to the world, the Bible actually gives more pages to refuting, and rebuking false doctrine, and admonishing those caught up in it, and spreading it. My concern is not how the world percieves me for discharging my ministry. My concern is discharging my ministry, for the gospel is vieled to those who are perishing, and the enemies of Christ who found fault with Him, will surely find fault with His ministers.

The great deceptor has made great inroads into what are called "Churches" today. He has contorted, twisted, and revised the gospel so much that the average American Church bears little, or no resemblence to the Biblical first century Church we were instructed to follow. The fact that we have hundreds of denominational churches is proof of this. The fact that we have created a professional religous occupation, where students go to worldly colleges to recieve Christian instruction so that they can profit from the gospel is proof.

The fact that we have women leading prayer, and instruction in churches is proof of it. The fact that the Mormon, Catholic, Advent, and Baptist churches are held up as Christianity is proof of it. The fact that people like Pat Robertson, and James Dobson who support pre-emptive war fare, and preach nationalism are held up as "Christian leaders" is proof of it. The fact that the president of the USA, who claims to be a Christian said of the pope......."We hope the Holy Father gets well, and returns to the head of the church" is proof of it!

With that being said, for His Good Purpose God has chosen some to be pastors, evangelists, teachers, abd so forth. In these charges we see a clear, and direct charge to boldly correct, and rebuke false teaching. One need only look to Pauls address to Corinth, or Peters second letter to see this. In fisrt Corinthians Paul called some perverts, and self centered. He called the Galatians "foolish", and warned timothy of the Christians who would turn aside to myths. You Camp cook, it is not unGodly to follow the charge of God. If it causes some uncomfort, then sobeit. Never was a promise given to we who minister that things would not get messy.

Shalom

[Bill McNeal]

Ray, you said ............"""I also see you are still quick to say that someone who disagrees with you is taking scripture out of context, teaching false doctrine, has failed or is weak in Bible knowledge."""

Ray my friend, you did take Rev 3:20 out of context, and you applied it incorrectly. You attempted to take a Scripture directed at the Church of saved Christians, and use it to support your notion that it was Jesus telling the non saved that He was knocking on their door. I simply pointed this out. I will also point out that if you are going to attempt to instruct using scripture, you must be careful to use it properly, or face the fact that your misuse may be pointed out. I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, I only ask that you use the proper Scripture to bolster your arguement

Shalom

[BLACK WOLF]

Bill McNeal,

No, I didn't take it out of context. Re-read my reply to your accussation and than answer my questions.

Your bro,

Ray ;^)

[WildmanSC]

Bill Lamb, actuall Matthias was the replacement for Juda, not Paul. Paul was Chosen as Apostle to the Gentiles, and all the world.

Anyway Bill, since its obvious you are going to cling to the premise that man is first a believer in Jesus Christ, before Jesus Christ comes into them, you then have to address the timeline situation Bill. What is the time elapsed between being a believer in Jesus Christ, and actually having the Spirit Of Christ come into you. Is it minutes, days, weeks, years????. We know that the Bible tells us that there was a time lapse between the Cross, and Pentacost, but know that Pentacost has come, what is that timeline Bill.

Are you suggesting that many of the Church instructions we see given in Corinth, Ephesus, Galatia, and so forth could have been given to people who were void of the Holy Spirit?, or waiting for it?

In the book of the Acts we see the Holy Spirit first entering Saul of Tarsaus, then we see the scales fall from his eyes, then we see him baptized, and then he rested. A few days later the Bible says "at once he began to preach", and we know the rest of the story. So Bill, while we see a clear post Pentacost Biblical conversion, in which the Holy Spirit first fills Paul, are you suggesting that Paul was capable of being a believer first?. Are you suggesting that Saul had the ability to say while on route to Damascus that "you know, I think I'll believe in Jesus, so He will give me the Holy Spirit, so I can help Christians, instead of killing them". ????

What about the other post pentacost conversions we see in which the Holy Spirit is present upon conversion?. Are these wrong Bill. Are you saying the Ethiopian could have become a believer without the Holy Spirit coming unto him?. What about the Jailer Bill? Was it his choice to believe on his own, or was it the Holy Spirit which shook the daylights out of his jail, coupled with the gospel preached by Paul, and Silas???

What about Lydia Bill?. The Bible tells us that that the Lords Holy Spirit "opened her heart to respond to Pauls message". Also in Lydias conversion we see her say this after her heart was opened by the Spirit...."If you consider me a believer in the Lord, come and stay at my house".......Luke then goes on to say that theu were persuaded by her. You see Bill, Lydia did not first profess to be a believer, then have her heart opened by Christs Spirit, but rather the Bible says the complete opposite.

Also Bill, you need to address the following scripture found in Pauls first letter to the saints in Corinth........."""We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: “For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ"""

You see Bill, your doctrine does not mesh with the Biblical teaching of Paul who clearly tells the Church that a man who lacks the Holy Spirit, can never understand, or accept things of a Spiritual nature, yet here we find you Bill, teaching that a man can be void of the Holy Spirit, yet be a believer in Christ Jesus????. Could you explain that Bill?. Are you saying that although Paul says a man void of the Spirit, is incapable of accepting things of the Spirit, that he can believe in Spiritual things without having the Spirit? Please clarify.

One last thing Bill. If a man can be a believer in Jesus Christ as you claim without having Jesus Christ in Him, why then the need for the Holy Spirit?. If Christ died for the worlds sins, and if man can believe on his own, then why have a Holy Spirit?

Shalom

Bill McNeal,

I don't disagree with a thing you said above, with the exception of the operation of the Holy Spirit in salvation. The Holy Spirit takes the Word of God as it is preached, taught or read and brings conviction to the heart of the listener/reader. Under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit the listener/reader's heart is opened, "...for with the heart man believeth unto salvation." Then when the listener/reader exercises Romans 10:9-10 & 13, he/she is saved, and the baptism, the filling of the Holy Spirit is instantaneous. The area where the timeline can have gaps in it of minutes, hours, days, months or even years is from the time the person first comes under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit until that person exercises Romans 10:9-10 & 13.

When I got saved, by exercising Romans 10:9-10 & 13 under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, I distinctly remember two things happening at the same time as I said "Amen" at the close of the prayer in which I praised God for His love, mercy and grace, I repented of my sin, I thanked the Lord for having died in my place on the Cross of Calvary and the Father for having raised Him from the dead, and I asked Christ Jesus to come into my heart and life as personal Saviour. I experienced a joy beyond belief and a sense of relief as if a burden had been lifted off of my shoulders. The sense of relief, was the load of sin being lifted off of my shoulders and placed on Christ's as He washed away my sins with His precious blood. The joy was the Holy Spirit giving life to my spirit even as He filled my heart and took up residence, for eternity!! I might note that nobody, but I believe the Holy Spirit, told me what to pray. I believe the Holy Spirit directed my prayer as He brought to my memory the Word of God I had heard preached during nearly a week of evangelistic meetings and that I read before kneeling by my couch at home and praying.

Bill, you are correct, the Holy Spirit is always an agent of salvation. It is the Holy Spirit that takes the foolishness of the gospel you preach, plies it to the listener's hearts and brings conviction. However, if you are preaching anything other than the message Paul preached, Christ Jesus and him crucified, then you are preaching amiss. In his first letter to the church at Corinth, the Apostle Paul said to them in I Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. That IS the gospel.

As for the selection of Paul as an Apostle, you are correct, he was not selected to replace Judas. However, I would submit to you that he was actually an Apostle, in that He was personally selected by Jesus Christ, and that Matthias was not truly an Apostle in that he was selected by the remaining eleven by giving of lots, Acts 1:26, after Judas' transgressions toward Christ and after he killed himself. All others that were identified as Apostles were selected personally by Jesus Christ.

Bill

[Esquire]

I know that many theologians like to avoid using analogies to understand God and the things of God, because analogies are always limited, in the end. I understand that analogies are limited, but I am not a theologian, and they help me. I have always found the analogy between the Israelites in the desert and our own spiritual condition, to be helpful.

After wandering strange in the desert for many a long year the Israelites crossed the Jordan river into the promised land. But that was not the end of the story. They still had to possess it. To accomplish this they had many walled cities to take, by faith and by action, and this did not all take place in a day!

In my own life, and that of many believers, I/we have wandered strange for many a long year in the desert of our own choosing/making. When we are saved by grace through faith (to speak in christianese) and when we surrender control of our lives to God, it is as if we had crossed over the Jordan. We now stand in the "promised land", able now to begin participation in the Kingdom life that the sermon on the mount describes so beautifully. But the story ain't over!!

Oh no, it has just begun. Our inner life is a mess of "walled cities", areas in which the old man still needs to surrender control. As the Holy Spirit convicts and moves in our hearts and minds, these walls come crumbling down. For one person it may happen in a day. Praise God! For another, it may take years! Again, praise God!

Remember that Paul struggled with these things in Romans Ch. 7. He was already "saved" at the time:

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

Some years later, in Galatians Ch. 2, Paul attained some measure of victory over his propensity to commit deliberate sin:

20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

He had finally died to self, it seems. This is why we do not despair when we Christians struggle with sin, as even Paul did. Rather, we have reason to be thankful for these trials and tribulations. Here I look to James Ch. 1:

Trials and Temptations

2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

__________________________________________________ _____

Based upon my limited understanding, God calls us and we choose (hopefully) to come. To come as we are. Then a [further] process of change begins. Neither Pharoah with his hardness of heart nor Paul on Damascus road are to be considered absolutely normative for every believer or nonbeliever. In other words, it is error to say that if God does not strike you down and come upon you as He did Paul, or even Luther, you are not saved.

Camp Cook,

Thanks for your good words about that which attracts and repels. Christians ought to be more about conforming their own life to God's word (which will attract a spiritually hungry world) and less about looking in God's word for material to support their ideas and systems. Few can be "argued" into believing, but many can be "argued" away from the church.

Mike

[Esquire]

I once sat in a college chapel service in which a bunch of missionaries spoke about the "call of God" on their lives. I was an relatively angry youth and pretty cynical about all of the marvelous tales they told of encountering God. Each of them exceeded their 5 minute time limit by a shameless margin, so that by the end, we were all quite late for lunch.

Finally the last guy mounted the podium. He was an old timer, and he approached the microphone slowly. I thought, "Oh boy, here we go. Another long one." He waited for silence, then spoke 3 sentences that I never forgot. He said:

"I never experienced such a miraculous calling. Fifty years ago I went to China as a volunteer. As far as I'm concerned, God is still accepting volunteers."

:)

[sixshot]

I was reading the Bible one day..feeling very low. I read a line that said" I will never leave you.".....and I cried. I mean, I just went to pieces. I felt then ...at that very moment,the love of GOD. Am I saved? You bet!! Why? How do I know? 'cause I asked to be. I'm still a sinner...I am still human.I TRY to remember to :help: ask for guidence everyday. The devil controls the world. For now. Most times I think we forget that. However ,I know God loves me and will not let my soul be destroyed. The love of God covered me that day. Sometime later I will share some of my other GOD moments with you. Christ is guiding those who ask for His help!!! :help:

[Esquire]

Hey Sixshot!! Welcome to Tradtalk!!

:thankyou: for sharing. Please share some more!! And stick around. I'm glad to see you here. :)

Mike

[Cato]

Hello Sixshot and welcome. Please join us regularly. Iron sharpens iron. We need each other.

This thread was begun by me, in an effort to discuss Christian growth. If you are truly a child of God, a son of the Son, you should be growing. It is not normal to remain a baby and to drink milk. You should be growing to become more Christlike. Actually, as this occurs, you begin to realize how very far you are from actually being Chrislike, and how desperately you need His Spirit in you. The more mature you get, the more imature you feel, in many ways. But the caution is this: if you take a picture of your Christian life 5 yrs ago, and compare it to today, you should see some real progress. If not, you should be very concerned about your walk, and maybe even the reality of your salvation. I am not saying that a person cannot be stagnant and saved, but I am saying it is not healthy or normal.

The discussion of theology has been intersting, and informative. I fear we are getting to the point of dimishing returns, where we may begin to become a little divisive. So I hope this will end, or at least a major effort to be sure we are not devisive will follow.

Please?

[WildmanSC]

There can only be 2 scenarios.

Either we have a choice or we don't.

Either we play a roll in our salvation or we don't.

There can only be truth or lies...fact or fiction.

If God doesn't force us by the way He created us than He has created us to be able to make choices without Him having direct control over which choices we personally choose.

If a created being isn't given a choice than it's choice is controlled or made by it's creator.

Just as Cueball has said - my christian brother who believes in predestiantion is saved the same as me.

I believe in both freewill and predestination. Once you understand an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God, the 2 exist without contradicting one another.

Ray

Ray


Ray,

God no more forces His will upon us than He did upon Adam and Eve. What was His perfect will for them in the Garden of Eden? It was for them to do that which He had commanded them, tend the Garden and eat of everything except of the one tree which He commanded them not to eat. His permissive will allowed them to disobey and to yield to the enticing serpent/Satan.

Likewise, His perfect will was seldom done in the case of the nation of Israel. They chose to ignore His commands and to follow their own, fleshly desires and will. His permissive will allowed them to do so.

It has been so since Christ died on the Cross of Calvary, arose again on the third day, and ascended in to Heaven on the day of Pentecost. At that time the Holy Spirit empowered Christ's disciples, who were already believers and therefore saved, and enabled them to speak in tongues, demonstrate other various and asundry sign gifts, such as healing the lame and sick, raising the dead, etc as a sign to the Jews. Still yet, there were those who chose to not believe and God in His permissive will allowed it.

Praise the Lord, God is a loving, merciful and gracious God who sent His Son to die in our stead, and who does not give us what we deserve, but rather if under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit we come to see the gifts that He makes available to us, the gift of His Son (John 3:16), the gift of salvation ( ), the gifts of faith and grace (Eph 2:8-9), and even the gift of repentance ( ). It is when we see the gifts He offers us and we under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit put action to the gift of repentance that we are born again!!

Bill

[BLACK WOLF]

WildmanSC,

Have you been reading any of my posts? Based on your response, it would seem you believe I don't believe in freewill, but maybe I am misunderstanding.

If you have been following any of my posts you should realize that I support the belief in freewill and those were questions posted to someone sitting on the fence or to those that don't believe in freewill.

But thanks for your response...I agree.

Your bro,

Ray

[WildmanSC]

Blackwolf,

I sent you an email. Sorry for the confusion caused by my last post. That was not my intent.

Bill

[BLACK WOLF]

No problem Bill. I got your email. It's all clear now.

Thanks...your bro,

Ray

[Bill McNeal]

Bill Lamb, I really do not understand what you are writing???

You profess that it is the Holy Spirit that convicts, then you turn right around and once again proclaim that it's something you say , Romans 10-9 in this case that gets you saved, and that then, after words uttered, the Holy Spirit comes upon you???

Bill, this is simply unBiblical. It may be a denominational doctrine, but it has no Biblical basis whatsoever., for none of the Biblical conversions God included in His Holy Writ resemble what you speak of. Romans 10, like all scripture once again points to Gods Sovereign powers. You see Bill, you are claiming that if you say Romans 10-9......"That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved".......that is the lynch-pin, and my friend it is not, because you forget one VERY important thing.

You see Bill, God tells us this about a mans heart in Jeremiah 17-9......"The heart is decietful above all things, and beyond cure".........However you are claiming that a man who has not yet recieved the Holy Spirit , which the Bible tells us brings us the new Christian Heart , is capable of professing belief in Christ with his deceitful heart???

Romans 10-10 tells us that it is with our HEARTS we beleive, and are justified, therefore, for you to suggest that such beleif can occur without the regenerated heart, that can only be accomplished by the Holy Ghost of Jesus Christ being first present in us, then you are in error, and such teaching must re rebuked, and exposed as false. {BTW, those interested should really read Deut 30, and 31 chapters, to see how Gods Word dovetails with Romans 10.}

This is why so many Christians after a true rebirth , have testified that they walked around thinking they were saved by saying a "sinners" prayer, or quoting some scripture recommended by men. In the book of Acts we see Gods perfect order of salvation with Paul, and we see it once again with Lydia, where God says............"The Lord opened her heart to respond to Pauls message"......That sums it up perfectly. It doesn't say that Lydia "accepted" the Lord. It doesn't say that God was "knocking" on this womans heart. It doesn't say that she first asked the Lord to come. It doesn't say that she first muttered a prayer, or anything.

It simply says that JESUS CHRIST, the Sovereign Lord, "opened this womans heart" to RESPOND to Pauls message!!!. That is not being a "puppet master" like some have suggested. That is not being controlling like some have suggested. That is not being forceful like some have suggested, but rather that is GOD, in HIS Holiness, and Mercy, giving a woman who had a deceitfully dead heart a new one, so that she could live with Him for eternity.

Lydia is no more a "puppet" for getting a new heart, than Paul is for preaching Gods Truth to her new Heart, for God tells us "blessed, are the feet that bring the Gospel" . This is the beauty of Gods great plan, that this dieing woman, would recieve a heart transplant, THE HOLY GHOST OF CHRIST JESUS, so that she could hear the words of the Apostle, {who himself recieved a new heart}and then "respond" to them by confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord!

These are conversions our Lord recorded. These are the events He sought worthy to pen, and these are examples that we who were saved out of death look to for inspiration!!!!

Shalom

[Cueball]

:deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse


I think the thread has served its usefull life. We all can agree to disagree.


..........................................Roby.... .................................

[BLACK WOLF]

I just have one more thing to share before I leave this thread and beat the dead horse no more for now ;^)

The only verses I know of that shows how God specifically works upon a person's spirit is when the Holy Spirit draws people to Him or hardens their heart. Neither are controling the person in question, but instead has created a relationship where God acts and the person reacts.

It is ALWAYS God first and man second. That is why we can do nothing without the Holy Spirit being involved, yet God still ALLOWS us to make decisions and choices freely based on the parameters He set forth in the beginning.

God has created life with consequenses to our actions and choices that will either draw us nearer to God or harden our hearts.

No where in the bible does it say that God forces a man to choose one way or another except to at least make a choice. If we are not given a choice freely than there really is no choice to make, because God is making it for us.

The God I love has ALLOWED us that freedom and than holds us accountable instead of making the choice for us and than punish us for the choice we were never able to make.

Ray

[Bill McNeal]

I just have one more thing to share before I leave this thread and beat the dead horse no more for now ;^)

The only verses I know of that shows how God specifically works upon a person's spirit is when the Holy Spirit draws people to Him or hardens their heart. Neither are controling the person in question, but instead has created a relationship where God acts and the person reacts.

It is ALWAYS God first and man second. That is why we can do nothing without the Holy Spirit being involved, yet God still ALLOWS us to make decisions and choices freely based on the parameters He set forth in the beginning.

God has created life with consequenses to our actions and choices that will either draw us nearer to God or harden our hearts.

No where in the bible does it say that God forces a man to choose one way or another except to at least make a choice. If we are not given a choice freely than there really is no choice to make, because God is making it for us.

The God I love has ALLOWED us that freedom and than holds us accountable instead of making the choice for us and than punish us for the choice we were never able to make.

Ray

Ray, I hear you saying that man is giving a "choice" in his salvation,and I know you really want this to be true, because it makes sense to the human mind, for it allows man to feel in control, but the plain fact remains that the Biblical conversions we see recorded in Scripture do not reflect that at all. Nowhere does the Bible say that after the Holy Spirit came upon him, that Paul then "chose" to be saved. The same holds true for those saved at Pentacost, who are told that "the promise is for those who God called", and that it was the Lord Who added daily to the number being saved. After the Holy Spirit came upon the Ethiopian, we do not see scripture say, "he then had to choose to accept, or reject Jesus".

Now, I totally agree with you that nowhere in the Bible does God "force" anyone to do anything. He does not have to, because the Bible tells us that God Created men for certain purposes for His Good Will, and Purpose, so naturally these created men will simply follow the direction God Created them to follow. It is those who have created the "freewill" doctrine that accuse God of "controlling", and "forcing" men to do things, because these people have been deceived into thinking that they have the ability to change Gods Sovereign design for them, and when Gods natural order of Creation occurs, they cry foul.

However, the following comment from you is Biblically incorrect........"God has created life with consequenses to our actions and choices that will either draw us nearer to God or harden our hearts."

Again, you are suggesting that our actions "draw us near", or "harden us". While this may pass as truth in certain denomination teachings, the Bible clearly says different...........

."""What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory–"""

Here we find God clearly saying that He is the one who hardens, and extends mercy, and that it is not based on mans desire, or effort Ray, like you suggest. I am not picking on you, but you need to understand that there is a big difference between stating an opinion based on personal beliefs, and stating one on Biblical fact. I feel that if we make a claim, that we need to be able to support it with Scripture. I feel comfortable publicly stating that it is God who extends mercy, and that He does so to those He chose, and prepared in advance, because I know it says that in the Bible. It's when we surrender our priestly rights over to hired clergy, as we have in America, that the false teaching is proliferated because we no longer seek out Gods Word on our own, but rather we tend to support our "church doctrine", that we were raised in, or attend.

A classic example of this, is the false teaching that Jesus died for everyone. Nothing could be further from the truth. Jesus died so that the Elect of God may live, and avoid the second death, for He Himself , who is First Born of the Dead, took the second death of His Beloved upon Himself, so that His Bride would be cleasned, and made ready to enter Heaven. Scripture tells us that He said prior to the Cross, His journey to Hell, His Resurrection, His Raising, and His holy Ghost that His believers "shall not perish", but that those who "believe not", were ALREADY condemned. Here we find Jesus plainly telling us that some people were already "condemned", yet some still falsely teach that Jesus died for their sins, when in fact their sins will be paid off in their second death, while the sins of the Believers will "be remembered no more"!

It is my prayer that the Word of God grows stronger in all who He has called!

Shalom!

[BLACK WOLF]

Is there anyone one here who wants to hear a different interpretation of "the potter and the clay" other than the one Bill is preaching?

Ray ;^)

[Bill McNeal]

Ray, I am not preaching an "interpretation". I simply quoted God, and here is the quote again................


"""What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory– """

Now Ray, just because I point out that God says that He will harden hearts, and give mercy, and that it is not based on mans EFFORT or DESIRE, based on the fact that that is exactly what He says, does not mean that I am "interpreting" anything. I am simply quoting Scripture. Christians need not "interpret" Gods Word, because they receive the Wisdom of the Spirit which allows them to understand it. It is the world who attempts to "interpret" Gods Word, through human wisdom.

So Ray,I ask you a simple question........ based on Scripture, does Gods Mercy, or His hardening of hearts depend on mans desires, or efforts?

Shalom?

[Esquire]

Ray,

I have two concerns. One is that Bill's interpretations might be taken by someone who doesn't know any better as faithful to the biblical text. For that reason alone I personally believe it is worth standing in the gap a bit.

ANY READER - please review this entire thread, if the subject is of interest to you, and of course, read the bible for yourself.

My second concern is that Mr. McNeal, because of his personal sense of calling, is going to feel driven to write a lengthy epistle in response to anything you write. Contained within that epistle are possibly going to be more errors that ought to be addressed.

So I will leave the cost/benefit analysis to you. For my part, I will say, as my final word, that I think Mr. McNeal is mistaken in his understanding, and that I will urge ANY READER - please review this entire thread, if the subject is of interest to you, and most importantly, read the bible for yourself.

Mike

[WildmanSC]

Ray, I am not preaching an "interpretation". I simply quoted God, and here is the quote again................


"""What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory– """

Now Ray, just because I point out that God says that He will harden hearts, and give mercy, and that it is not based on mans EFFORT or DESIRE, based on the fact that that is exactly what He says, does not mean that I am "interpreting" anything. I am simply quoting Scripture. Christians need not "interpret" Gods Word, because they receive the Wisdom of the Spirit which allows them to understand it. It is the world who attempts to "interpret" Gods Word, through human wisdom.

So Ray,I ask you a simple question........ based on Scripture, does Gods Mercy, or His hardening of hearts depend on mans desires, or efforts?

Shalom?


Bill McNeal,

IF the potter was going to do His perfect will, why did he make imperfection when he made the first man out of clay, and the first woman out of his rib? The Godhead spoke amongst themselves and said "...let's make them in our image..."

If the imperfection, i.e., the sin, that followed is an image of the Godhead, then we are saying the Godhead sins/sinned. Woe be unto the man that speaks that blasphemy! Why then did Adam and Eve sin? The obvious answer is because of God's permissive will. He did not force them to sin, which would be the choosing by God for them to sin! For by one man sin was introduced unto humanity. That one man was Adam.

Your false, erroneous and out of context teachings of the Word of God are the result of an overzealous, immature Christian who wants to be something he is not prepared to be, a preacher/teacher/evangelist. If God has already determined who will be saved, why do you even bother to preach? He certainly doesn't need you, or any other preacher for that matter, if He is the sole determiner as to who will get saved.

You confuse foreknowledge/Omniscience of God (of who will get saved) with predestination/Omnipotence (as to how they will get saved) and then spread a false gospel that totally ignores the complete context of the scriptures. I emplore you to cease and desist this blasphemy. Many will read and hear what you say and when Satan's demon sits on their shoulder and whispers "...that's not for you, you are a dirty rotten sinner!", they will turn away from the very gospel that can save them because they know they are a sinner, as we ALL are.

Bill McNeal, do you believe you are a sinner? I mean do you believe that you this very day are a sinner? If you say no, then the truth is not in you!

You are so close to teaching the truth it is unbelievable. Let me approach it in this manner. In Is 59:2 the Word of God says "For your iniquities have caused me to turn my head that I will not hear you." A Holy God will not even look upon sin. A prime example of this truth is at the Cross of Calvary when at the last hour the Father in Heaven turned His head and would not look upon His Son. Why, I ask? Because Christ had become sin, had borne the sins of ALL of humanity upon His body, and the Holy Father would not even look at His Son when He became black with sin. Now you teach that the first step in salvation is for the Holy Spirit is to come into the heart of the unrepentant sinner, so that when he hears the Word preached, taught, or he reads it, the Holy Spirit can bring conviction and draw the person to Christ. The only problem with that teaching is that the HOLY Spirit will no more come into the very blackened heart of an unrepentant sinner than the HOLY Father would look upon the sins of the nation of Israel or of Christ!

The Hoy Spirit does not enter a dirty vessel! It will empower the Word as it is preached, taught or read, bring conviction to the blackened, sin stained heart and draw that heart to the very throne of grace. But the person under conviction MUST 1. believe by faith (the faith given by God - (Eph 2:8-9) 2. acknowledge Jesus as Lord and risen from the gave (Rom 10:9) and 3, repent of their sins (Acts 2:38, 26:18, 20). The Holy Spirit enters the heart ONLY at the INSTANT of salvation when a person repents of their sins and acknowledges Christ as their Saviour.

Is there a specific prayer than a sinner must pray to get saved? I don't think so, but when I'm endeavoring to lead someone to the Lord I point out specific phrases in Rom 10:9-13 and let the Holy Spirit lead them in their prayer, if they choose to pray. I do not pressure people to pray a prayer. If I do, how can I be sure it was not me endeavoring to push them to the Lord rather than the Holy Spirit pull them to Him? The Word of God clearly states "...some will plant seed, some will water, but God will grant the increase..."

Bill Lamb

[Bill McNeal]

Ray,

I have two concerns. One is that Bill's interpretations might be taken by someone who doesn't know any better as faithful to the biblical text. For that reason alone I personally believe it is worth standing in the gap a bit.

ANY READER - please review this entire thread, if the subject is of interest to you, and of course, read the bible for yourself.

My second concern is that Mr. McNeal, because of his personal sense of calling, is going to feel driven to write a lengthy epistle in response to anything you write. Contained within that epistle are possibly going to be more errors that ought to be addressed.

So I will leave the cost/benefit analysis to you. For my part, I will say, as my final word, that I think Mr. McNeal is mistaken in his understanding, and that I will urge ANY READER - please review this entire thread, if the subject is of interest to you, and most importantly, read the bible for yourself.

Mike

Mike, I really have no problem with you thinking that my teaching is self evolved, and in error. My issue with you is, is that like many people who have been indoctrinated in the main-stream American religous groups, you simply point to teaching that goes against what you have been taught as incorrect, without actually using the scriptures of Jesus Christ to lend credence to your charge.

I take the Biblical charge to rebuke, and correct false teaching seriously, and so should you, however that charge is given with an addition charge of using "careful instructions", and "great patience", which I feel that I have done, yet I feel you are becoming frustrated, and now simply proclaim that I am "wrong" because you are unable to rebuke me, and that is not the way a minister of God is called to act. We are called to be able to answer all men on matters of our faith.

If you notice, I always use Scripture to support my teaching, or proclaimations, and I feel that simply stating that someone is wrong, without rebuking them with Scripture, as you have done here , is not proving their incorrectness, but rather your inability to engage in constructive debate. Now, I simply ask that you state what you believe I am incorrect about, and support your claim with Gods Scripture. The sad fact is, is that Jesus Himself, and his early followers were written off by many who claimed to know God as false prophets, trouble-makers, and so forth, therefore I really do not expect to be treated any different. However their charges were seen as transparent because they simple accused out of fear of attack on their human traditions. The world created, human -tradition of works/free-will will always shutter at the proclamation of Gods Sovereign Will, because it is based in pride, and pride is a powerful form of sin.

So again Mike, wishing me to go away, or calling me false is your worldly right, but remember that those who belong to Christ view matters not via worldly charges, but rather through Spiritual Wisdom. In other words Mike, you need to provide Spiritual "meat" to your position, for we are called to test the Spirits, and we can only do our tests with Scripture. So, if you would be so kind, please point out my "errors", and kindly correct them with Scripture.

Shalom!

[Esquire]

Bill,

You might consider re-reading my posts along the course of this thread. I have based my understanding in scripture. I believe, as I have said, that you have both used and misused scriptures, along the way.

You say much that is true. But your understanding of the part we must play and the love that God has for each and every one of us, appears to me to be flawed. I make this statement based upon my reading and understanding of God's word, together with my reading and understanding of your posts. Not that I consider myself to have laid hold of all truth. Indeed I merely run the race that is set before me.

It is very hard to carry on an argument in person with a man who believes that he is right and that all the world is against him. How much harder to do it over the internet. I wish that we could spend some time together around a campfire, with our scriptures and perhaps a home brew in hand, prayerfully and humbly seeking the truth together.

I would ask you this question. Are you open to the POSSIBILITY that your understanding of Scripture could be in error?? Are you willing to concede that we each see through a glass darkly??

Many have lost their hope, under the very teachings that you champion so adamantly. I don't know your heart, or your history. However, Bill Lamb said well what I hesitated to say, but felt to be true.

If your understanding of predestination requires you to ignore all of the scriptures that have been referred to by myself and others, in this thread, then it is a broken understanding. Scripture does not contradict itself, and God is not the author of confusion.

If you think it would be profitable to continue this discussion via private messages, I am open to that, as time allows. I believe we can involve multiple parties. Some here may be interested in joining such a study. With all respect, I think that the usefulness of this public discussion has reached a point of diminishing returns.

In Him,
Mike

[Bill McNeal]

Bill, you wrote..........

"""IF the potter was going to do His perfect will, why did he make imperfection when he made the first man out of clay, and the first woman out of his rib? The Godhead spoke amongst themselves and said "...let's make them in our image..."""
-----------------

Bill, if you must, you will need to question the Potter. As for myself, I will simply, and humbley acknowledge that I believe Him when He says that He Creates for His Good Pleasure, and that I have no desire, or effort in my Mercy shown.

You also said..........

"""Your false, erroneous and out of context teachings of the Word of God are the result of an overzealous, immature Christian who wants to be something he is not prepared to be, a preacher/teacher/evangelist"""
---------------------

but thats OK Bill, I forgive you. I understand that my teaching creates fear in those who fear that Gods Sovereign Election may not include them. This is why the "freewill" doctrine was created in the first place, hence those who practice it always become abusive towards those who preach Gods Word, as it is recorded in the Bible. My ancient Brethren were accused of the same thing you accuse me of. I take your accusations as evidence that Jesus was right when He said that you will be mocked for Him.

You also said..........

"""If God has already determined who will be saved, why do you even bother to preach? He certainly doesn't need you, or any other preacher for that matter, if He is the sole determiner as to who will get saved."""

--------------

Why thats easy bill, I preach because like my ancient brother Paul, I am "compelled to preach the Gospel".......I am a loving prisoner of it, and it was the Potters who designed me this way, and woe unto me, if I question Him. Besides, He tells me that "Blessed are the feet that brings the Good News". I kinda like that.

You also said.........

"""You confuse foreknowledge/Omniscience of God (of who will get saved) with predestination/Omnipotence (as to how they will get saved) and then spread a false gospel that totally ignores the complete context of the scriptures. I emplore you to cease and desist this blasphemy.
----------

Actually Bill, I simply pointed out that God said that """He chose us in Him before the Creation of the World to be holy and blameless in his sight, in love He predestined us to be adopted sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His Pleasure, and Will"""....Eph1:4-6. I also pointed out that God said....."""It does not therefore depend on mans desire, or effort, but on Gods Mercy"""" Rom 9:16, and """"Therefore God has mercy, on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens who He wants to harden."""

Now, I have little doubt that your religous denomination would find this "blasphemous" to their various doctrines, but that does not change the fact that it is still Gods perfect Word, given to His Bride to embrace, and preach. I also have little suprise at your calling for my silence, for Scripture plainly tells the Church that many will gnash their teeth at the Gospel, and call for it's silencing. Sorry Bill, but I am called to preach, but I welcome anyone to rebuke me using Gods Scriptures if you feel that I am in error.

You also said.........

"""Many will read and hear what you say and when Satan's demon sits on their shoulder and whispers "...that's not for you, you are a dirty rotten sinner!", they will turn away from the very gospel that can save them because they know they are a sinner, as we ALL are."""

--------------

The Biblical accounts of salvation clearly teach the Body that nothing can stop the Will of the Holy Spirit, or the Gospel that God sends. The day of Pentacost clearly proves this. Also, our Lord has given His Church a great peace in the following Scripture......."""In His great Mercy, He has given us new birth into a Living Hope, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, into an inheritance that can NEVER perish, spoil, or fade.""" 1Peter 1:3-4. Remember Bill, God says "Thy will, will be done"!

You also said..........

"""Bill McNeal, do you believe you are a sinner? I mean do you believe that you this very day are a sinner? If you say no, then the truth is not in you!"""

My flesh is sinful, yet my Spirit is pure, and perfect. I am a saint of God.

You also said...........

"""Now you teach that the first step in salvation is for the Holy Spirit is to come into the heart of the unrepentant sinner, so that when he hears the Word preached, taught, or he reads it, the Holy Spirit can bring conviction and draw the person to Christ."""

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No, I simply point to what the Bible says. The Bible clearly points to the fact that it is the Holy Spirit that FIRST comes into a person in order to allow them to believe. We see this in every conversion in the Bible, and I challenge you to refute this. You are preaching the Gospel of Bill Lamb, in which Bill Lamb suggests his opinions are Gospel, and you are becoming angry because someone is rebuking them.

You also said.........

""""The Hoy Spirit does not enter a dirty vessel! """

------------

Then you are clearly claiming that the Biblical conversion of Saul of Tarsaus is incorrect. For Scripture says that Paul was FIRST filled with the Holy Spirit, THEN the scales fell from his eyes, and THEN he was baptized, and began to preach. Again Bill, there is Bill Lambs opinions, and there is the clarity of Scripture. Bill, if you understood why Jesus is called "First born among the dead". you would understand why the Holy Spirit indeed first enters a man so that he may believe.

You also said.......

"""It will empower the Word as it is preached, taught or read, bring conviction to the blackened, sin stained heart and draw that heart to the very throne of grace.But the person under conviction MUST 1. believe by faith (the faith given by God - (Eph 2:8-9) 2. acknowledge Jesus as Lord and risen from the gave (Rom 10:9) and 3, repent of their sins (Acts 2:38, 26:18, 20). The Holy Spirit enters the heart ONLY at the INSTANT of salvation when a person repents of their sins and acknowledges Christ as their Saviour."""

------------

This is simply denominational opinion, based on the teachings of man, and has no Biblical foundation whatsoever. You in effect are suggesting that the Holy Ghost hoovers around outside of it's intended residence, until the person cleanses itself of sin by quoting passages of Scripture???. What you fail to realize is, is that the Scriptures you point to as cleansing them were not even revealed to the Church until well after pentacost, and all of the Biblical Conversions were recorded. We do not see Paul, the Jailer, the Ethiopian, Lydia, or anyone who was converted in Scripture following Bill Lambs "MUST" list. What we do see, is that after the Holy Spirit comes upon them, they then begin to "respond" to the Gospel message. Nowhere in Scripture is the Church told that """The Holy Spirit enters the heart ONLY at the INSTANT of salvation when a person repents of their sins and acknowledges Christ as their Saviour.""". This is simple an invented doctrine, created by man, and parrotted by you. I challenge you to provide Scripture to support this.

You see Bill, your "Must" list, is living proof that you follow a doctrine of works that teach that it's the words of men that cleanse their sins. In your defense, I do not even think you are aware that that is exactly what you suggested here. Also in your defense, I think you are just defending your denominational doctrine out of pride, and tradition, which is very common in religous churches today. Also, I feel my youth threatens you, and you simply lash out at that, and I do understand, but that does nor diminish my charge. My call is not to change the minds of those locked up in traditional religions of men, but rather I just preach Gospel. The Gospel of Jesus Christ, according to Jesus Christ. I have no "MUST" lists that people need to follow, for I believe God when He says He chose His Church before the Earth was formed. I am simply following my design. I do not boast in myself, but rather I boast in Christ, who is Blazing center power of the Good News.

It is my hope that you one day grow to be a minister of Christ; leaving behind your pride, anger, and traditions, to preach the True, and perfect love of His New Covenant, giving to those who He saw fit to extend Mercy too.

Shalom!

[Cueball]

The bible also says do not cast your pearls before swine. So why are both sides so content on arguing a point to death. It is very obvious that neither side is going to budge.

What is dishearten to me is that some of the tones I have seen in some of the post are not being brought in love. There is some pride showing its ugly head here.

I implore you to search your hearts and decide if you think this is how Jesus would have handled this matter. If you honestly think this is how he would have handled it then maybe we should just have this thread locked by management of this site. Because nothing is being accomplished at this point but hurting of christian brothers feelings.


.........................................Roby..... ....................................

[Esquire]

How you do tempt a man, Mr. McNeal! :)

you said:

Then you are clearly claiming that the Biblical conversion of Saul of Tarsaus is incorrect. For Scripture says that Paul was FIRST filled with the Holy Spirit, THEN the scales fell from his eyes, and THEN he was baptized, and began to preach

Saul fell to the ground when the light hit and immediately confessed Christ as Lord. He obeyed his instructions, to go to a place and wait. He then fasted for three days and prayed. Ananias then came to him, as instructed. Paul was then filled with the Holy Spirit, scales fell from his eyes (he could see again), and he was then baptized (outwardly demonstrating the work that was done in his heart)!

Now, according to your paradigm, this passage can only be interpreted one way. Saul had no choice when he said "Lord"; no choice when he obeyed and went; no choice when he fasted; no choice when he prayed.

What we don't know is where Saul was in his own journey "through the desert" of his own heart that made him able to fall to his knees and confess "Lord" at the first flash of light! We simply aren't given enough information! When we are "saved" the Holy Spirit is available to us - the helper. Over time we become more filled with him, more surrendered to God. For some it happens in a flash. Saul was apparently filled in a flash - fortunate man! (Of course we know he still struggled with sin). At any rate, when you say that he was not saved until he was filled with the Holy Spirit, you ADD an assumption to the word.

Also, when you say that Saul was filld with the Holy Spirit ON THE SPOT, you assume again. Read the passage below carefully. Ananias prayed, in order that he might be filled. At some time he was. But was he filled at that moment?? The text doesn't say. Was that filling a requirement for his salvation?? The text does not say. In your passion to support your position, you have ignored some scripture and added your own assumptions to other scripture.

17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord–Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here–has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

In Him,
Mike

[Bill McNeal]

QUOTE=Esquire]Bill,

You might consider re-reading my posts along the course of this thread. I have based my understanding in scripture. I believe, as I have said, that you have both used and misused scriptures, along the way.

You say much that is true. But your understanding of the part we must play and the love that God has for each and every one of us, appears to me to be flawed. I make this statement based upon my reading and understanding of God's word, together with my reading and understanding of your posts. Not that I consider myself to have laid hold of all truth. Indeed I merely run the race that is set before me.

It is very hard to carry on an argument in person with a man who believes that he is right and that all the world is against him. How much harder to do it over the internet. I wish that we could spend some time together around a campfire, with our scriptures and perhaps a home brew in hand, prayerfully and humbly seeking the truth together.

I would ask you this question. Are you open to the POSSIBILITY that your understanding of Scripture could be in error?? Are you willing to concede that we each see through a glass darkly??

Many have lost their hope, under the very teachings that you champion so adamantly. I don't know your heart, or your history. However, Bill Lamb said well what I hesitated to say, but felt to be true.

If your understanding of predestination requires you to ignore all of the scriptures that have been referred to by myself and others, in this thread, then it is a broken understanding. Scripture does not contradict itself, and God is not the author of confusion.

If you think it would be profitable to continue this discussion via private messages, I am open to that, as time allows. I believe we can involve multiple parties. Some here may be interested in joining such a study. With all respect, I think that the usefulness of this public discussion has reached a point of diminishing returns.

In Him,
Mike[/QUOTE]

Mike, Mike, Mike, you just don't get it. Its not about me being "right", but about the Scripture being right, for I know often I am wrong in my human mind, but with the Mind of Christ, I am given the ability to see and understand a Gospel that is vieled from a perishing world.

You say you have based your understanding on Scripture. I beg to differ. The majority of your input to this thread as been telling me that I am wrong. While you may consider this an "arguement", I don't. I am not argueing with you Mike, I am quoting, and pointing to Scripture, and holding it up as Truth. However if you must accuse me of "believing I am right" for doing so, then guilty as charged.

One thing that you said really speaks volumes Mike..........

"""Many have lost their hope, under the very teachings that you champion so adamantly."""

Let me ask you Mike, could you be speaking perhaps of yourself? Could my teaching be perhaps scaring you, or causing you to questioning your salvation???. You see, the most hostile attacks in Christian debate always come from "freewill" people, directed at those who quote the Scriptures of Gods Sovereign Will. However, I have yet to meet a Christian who believes Gods Words with regards to His Sovereign Will to be threatened by the preaching of it.

Do you really think that stating that you agree with Bill Lamb about me being """a false, erroneous and out of context teachings of the Word of God are the result of an overzealous, immature Christian who wants to be something he is not prepared to be, a preacher/teacher/evangelist""" are going to change Gods Word.???

while the Pharisees of old answered the teachings of Christ, and the saints this way, do you think it will change anything now, anymore than it did then?
Like I said Mike, I see the charges of "false teaching" you accuse me of, yet I see that you have not provided any Scripture error I posted, or provided any Scripture to rebuke my alleged errors.

To be honest Mike, this looks a little like you are threatened by what say, rather than finding error with what I say. Now, if you have no desire to publicly rebuke me with Scripture, then I see little purpose to engage you privately. Your accusations were made publicly, and it is there they should be supported.

Once again Mike, I kindly ask you pin point the "errors" I made, so that all who view may benefit from it. I ask that you use the Scriptures to do this, and kindly leave personal attitudes, and opinions out of this areana.

Shalom!

[Bill McNeal]

How you do tempt a man, Mr. McNeal! :)

you said:

Then you are clearly claiming that the Biblical conversion of Saul of Tarsaus is incorrect. For Scripture says that Paul was FIRST filled with the Holy Spirit, THEN the scales fell from his eyes, and THEN he was baptized, and began to preach

Saul fell to the ground when the light hit and immediately confessed Christ as Lord. He obeyed his instructions, to go to a place and wait. He then fasted for three days and prayed. Ananias then came to him, as instructed. Paul was then filled with the Holy Spirit, scales fell from his eyes (he could see again), and he was then baptized (outwardly demonstrating the work that was done in his heart)!

Now, according to your paradigm, this passage can only be interpreted one way. Saul had no choice when he said "Lord"; no choice when he obeyed and went; no choice when he fasted; no choice when he prayed.

What we don't know is where Saul was in his own journey "through the desert" of his own heart that made him able to fall to his knees and confess "Lord" at the first flash of light! We simply aren't given enough information! When we are "saved" the Holy Spirit is available to us - the helper. Over time we become more filled with him, more surrendered to God. For some it happens in a flash. Saul was apparently filled in a flash - fortunate man! (Of course we know he still struggled with sin). At any rate, when you say that he was not saved until he was filled with the Holy Spirit, you ADD an assumption to the word.

Also, when you say that Saul was filld with the Holy Spirit ON THE SPOT, you assume again. Read the passage below carefully. Ananias prayed, in order that he might be filled. At some time he was. But was he filled at that moment?? The text doesn't say. Was that filling a requirement for his salvation?? The text does not say. In your passion to support your position, you have ignored some scripture and added your own assumptions to other scripture.

17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord–Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here–has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

In Him,
Mike

Much better Mike. Glad to see you using Scripture to rebuke, but not so fast. :) Could you please provide the Scripture that YOU said, says........"""Saul fell to the ground when the light hit and immediately confessed Christ as Lord."""

I will respond to the rest of your post soon

Shalom!

[Esquire]

Sorry. Just drop back a few verses in Acts 9.

3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

5“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

He asks the question but he also confesses the answer.

[Bill McNeal]

Now lets address your other Scripture Mike.........

"""What we don't know is where Saul was in his own journey "through the desert" of his own heart that made him able to fall to his knees and confess "Lord" at the first flash of light!"""

Oh yes we do Mike, Saul was breathing out murderous threats, and heading to Damascus to kill Christians. His "heart" condition was made CLEAR.........Here is the exact Scripture.......

"""Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked ""

As for what made him "able" to fall???. Ah Mike, the Bible said "it was a flash of light from heaven". Hardly a freewill kneeling Mike... :)

As for Saul ""confessing then that Jesus was Lord"". I must ask bro, what Bible are you reading, cause all the translations I have do not say that. What they say is that Jesus asks Paul why He is persecuting Him {further evidence of his heart at that time}, and Saul answers with a question """Who are you, Lord?""". He DID NOT CONFESS JESUS. Also remember that Saul professed to know the Lord of Israel, and not Jesus.

You also said..........

"""We simply aren't given enough information! """

Oh yes we are. Saul is heading to kill Christians, Jesus strikes him down, and he is scared to death.

You also said


"""When we are "saved" the Holy Spirit is available to us - the helper. Over time we become more filled with him, more surrendered to God."""

Please provide Scripture that supports this

You also said.......


"""For some it happens in a flash."""

What happens in a flash???

You also said

"""Saul was apparently filled in a flash - fortunate man! (Of course we know he still struggled with sin). At any rate, when you say that he was not saved until he was filled with the Holy Spirit, you ADD an assumption to the word."""

No he wasn't. He did not recieve the Holy Ghost till 3 days later.

You also said.......

"""Also, when you say that Saul was filld with the Holy Spirit ON THE SPOT,"""

No I did not.

You also said.........



"""you assume again. Read the passage below carefully. Ananias prayed, in order that he might be filled. At some time he was. But was he filled at that moment?? The text doesn't say. Was that filling a requirement for his salvation?? The text does not say. In your passion to support your position, you have ignored some scripture and added your own assumptions to other scripture."""

HEhehe.....my brother, perhaps you should re-read the passage again. You claim that the "text doesn't say" when he was filled, yet it CLEARLY says ..........."""Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord–Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here–has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. """

I think the word IMMEDDIATELY kinda says it all........ :)

regardless, its good to see you at least attempting to debate with Scripture , but ya really need to pray on it, and ask God to reveal it to you if you plan on using it to instruct, or rebuke.:)

Shalom!

[Bill McNeal]

Sorry. Just drop back a few verses in Acts 9.

3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

5“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

He asks the question but he also confesses the answer.

Mike, he does NOT confess Jesus. He asks "Who are you", Lord?. Notice the question mark????. Where to do yet a confession of Christ from that? If he confessed Jesus, why did Jesus have to say......."""I am Jesus whom you are persecuting"""??????. Why didn't He say I know you are Jesus, instead of asking if it was the Lord.

Also realize that Saul was a major player in Judaism, a schooled Benjamite Hebrew in the law, and a professed follower of the LORD, therefore his cry in question to the Lord of Israel was understanable, but not to the Lord Jesus Christ. To suggest otherwise simply disregards scripture.

Shalom

[larry]

I find it interesting that when it comes to natural birth, we have no problem ascibing it all to the Sovereignty of God; we have no choice as to when we will be born, we have no choice as to where we will be born, we have no choice as to who we will be born to, we have no choice as to whether we will be born male or female, what color or race we will be, what we will look like, ect., ect.

but when it comes to the second birth, or being born again, we are certain that it is not all in the hands of the Sovereign God, that for some reason, He either can't or won't do it without our help.

larry

[larry]

brothers, I have read carefully Bill Mcneals posts, and unless I missed it somewhere, I have found no place where he said that we don't make a conscience decision to receive forgiveness of sins through Christ the Lord. What I have read him espouse is the means by which we come to make that decision.Is it not always God who initiates the relationship by calling individuals to Himself?

throughout the age of the church, men used greatly by God have espoused the same thing, has anyone read any of the writings of Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spugeon? and what of some of the modern teachers/preachers? Chuck Swindall, John Mcarther, RC Spoul, John Piper? while this is not the central doctrine of their teachings/preachings, they all adhere to the doctrine of election as proclaimed in Gods holy word.

in Christ's love,

larry

[BLACK WOLF]

Mike,

I agree. Those are my concerns also, but as I see it there hasn't been one person, who is sitting on the fence concerning this topic, who is asking questions.

If there is someone...they are not speaking up...even when asked to.

This topic is being debated by people, who have already been convicted one way or the other, and to continue a debate in this fashion is just about worthless unless those that are sitting on the fence speak up and ask questions.

I believe it is OK to discuss topics like these for a little while, but I've been down this road one to many times with people like Bill to finally realize they are set in their beliefs and they are not budging. When it is drawn out like this thread has become without either side budging, it should be a sign to move on unless of course someone, who is truly looking for answers, is participating.

The only point I see to this now is when someone is wanting to hear themselves speak, tell everyone how right they are and how wrong everyone else is who disagrees with them.

I will humbly bow out until someone posts here a question they are truly looking for an answer to because they are unsure of what to believe.

Your bro,

Ray ;^)

[Cato]

I would like to ask one more time that you consider letting this thread die. Each has had ample opportunity to expess their thoughts. Presumably all have benefited in some way. But at this point, as I see it, we only stand to have brothers in Christ get alienated or angry, which is of course of not appropriate or beneficial.

I understand the need to address what you consider to be erroneous theology or doctrine. But I believe each has had ample opportunity to do that. It has reduced itself now to an argument, which I do not believe is in the best interest of this forum.

[Bill McNeal]

Cato, I just noticed that your title says moderator, so out of respect for your authority, I will do as you ask, but I want to point out that in no way am I "angry", "upset", "alienated", or feeling negative about what was said. It comes with the territory, and has little power over my compulsion to preach.

Larry, thanks for taking note of that. Sadly some folks only hear, and read what they want to in a mans words, and in Gods Word also. It matters little, because the Truth stands.

Shalom!

[Cueball]

I am going on vacation for a week starting this morning see you guys when I get back.



................................................Ro by................................................ .......

[Bill McNeal]

Enjoy your trip bro!!!!!!!!!!!

Shalom!

[BLACK WOLF]

Cueball,

Have a great time and I'll pray you and your family will have a safe and fun trip.

Where are you going? Hunting? ;^)

Ray

[Esquire]

Be careful, Cue. Have a great trip.