Just wanted some opinions

[Boho]

Hey guys and gals, I have a question and wanted some of your opinions. Just gonna shoot straight as that's the only way I know how to talk. My Mom is a huge racist. I was thinking about it the other day and I was wondering if she would not get to heaven because of it. It bothers me for her to be that way but it's just part of who she is. I would appreciate any opinions you guys have on this matter. I know it's a delicate subject these days so if you'd rather pm or email me than to post publically that's fine too. Thanks. Tom

[Howattman54]

"Honor Thy Father and Mother", which to my mind doesn't entail calling her a racist on a public forum in the name of your own piety. If you are truly concerned about her salvation, talk to her about Jesus' teachings and tell her how concerned you are that she may not be living up to Christ's example of love and fellowship.

Howattman

[Esquire]

Tom,

There are a whole bunch of questions wrapped up in that question of yours. I have recently been reading some great stuff by an old-school Scottish Presbyterian (George Morrison) who died almost 100 years ago. The following quote seems directly on point:

...there is one problem common to all ages, and that is the problem of a human life. And men are always trying to solve that problem, and are always baffled in their attempts to solve it, there is such intertwining of evil and of good in the most commonplace and ordinary mortal. If all that was noble in a human character stood out apart and separate from the base, how easy it would be to judge a brother, and to classify him, and to assign him to his deserts. And it is just because in actual human life there is no such cleavage between light and darkness, that men are so baffled in thier attempts to judge. Sometimes all that is fairest in a character is perilously akin to what is foulest. Sometimes all that is basest in a character is irradiated by gleams of heaven itself. Until at last in the common lives around us we meet so much that is awesome and inscrutable, that we feel how impossible it is to judge.

...

It is not the great only who are misunderstood; every one of us is misunderstood. We baffle each other, and perplex each other, and are insoluble enigmas to our dearest. We are a little better than te most loving think, and a little worse than the nastiest imagine; and if one thing is certain in this mortal life, it is that no one has ever seen us as we are.

The Bible does say that man judges by the outward appearance while God judges the heart. I believe that one person may struggle greatly to be a person that many of us would look "down on" as ungodly or rough, yet another may easily give every appearance of holiness while harboring a heart of stone.

God is concerned not with what we look like from the outside. He is concerned with what we do with what we are given. Your mother may have done much more than any of us would have done, given the same building blocks. Or she may not. God alone knows. You do what is required of you, and hold her in your prayers.

That is probably all you can do. And it seems to me that it may be enough . . .

Mike

[Boho]

Howattman, I hope I didn't offend you. If so I appologize. No harm intended. Thanks for the suggestions.

Mike, I have talked to her but she is just so set in her ways. I'll just do what I can and hope that is enough. Thanks guys. Tom

[Esquire]

It's a tough one, Boho. I've spent some time in your neck of the woods and there is some old timey racism that is pretty deeply inculturated in some folks.

Just remember John Newton. A depraved slaver, roughest of the rough. God changed him made him a new creation and he later wrote Amazing Grace.

[Howattman54]

Tom,

No, you didn't offend me. I guess I'm still kind of working through my own "parental" feelings after losing my Dad last April. He was saved in 1971 and was a good Christian, but like everyone he wasn't perfect, and I still have a lot of unresolved feelings. After I posted my reply it occured to me that it might sound a bit harsh, and I certainly didn't intend for that to be the message. I hope you and your mother can come to terms on her attitudes, but it sounds like she has a fine son so maybe she didn't do so bad afterall.

Howattman

[Cato]

Nice response (2nd response) Howattman. This is a place where we can sit down with each other (more or less) and honestly discuss things in our lives that we need help with. I know Boho personally, and know he meant no disrespect to his mom.

It is a difficult question. And Howattman's response is relevant; in spite of how our parents act, we are commanded to honor them. That can be hard at times.

The South still has vestiges (sp) of racism. But I have found it in the North as well (my in laws are Italians from Chicago). I do believe it is getting better down here. But the reality is that there are still some older people who grew up in a different era, and have not been able to overcome it, sadly.

Will your mom go to heaven? She will if she has genuinely given her life to God, and asked Jesus Christ to come into here life as her savior. When we give our lives to God, He begins to change us from within. Sometimes that change comes slowly, but the change should be occuring. But as we grow in the likeness of Christ, God continues to reveal sin in all of our lives that needs to be confessed, repented, and abandoned. For your mom, she apparently still has a problem with racism. For me it may be anger, or selfishness, or something else. The presence of sin is not an indication I am not saved. However, the indiference to sin, and the lack of any desire or effort to grow in the nature of Christ, would certainly be a reason to be concerned about the reality of my salvation.

Cato

[mwc]

Boho,

I don't mean to over simplify things but ask God for the reasurance you need. My dad is not a believer, that I know of, I have worried for his eternity. As a child and an adult I have spent countless hours pleading with God on his behalf. At some point I had to give the issue to God. My dad is still the same but God did replace some of my anxiety with peace, at least for now.

I'll pray for your mom and I hope things get resolved,

MWC

[Matt]

I don't think God expects us to be perfect, but he does expect us to notice our faults and work to fix them.

1 Cor. 13:3- And though I bestow all my goods to feed the apoor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Charity, being the pure love of Christ, is ment to be shown by all men to his brother regardless of race or creed. Racisim is not Charity and it never can or will be.

[Boho]

Thanks for the replies guys. She is the best Mom anyone could ask for. I am fortunate to have great parents. It's just that I worry about her harsh feelings towards others. I have learned to accept people for who they are. I always get to know a person before making any decisions about them. Thanks again. Tom

[BLACK WOLF]

I just LOVE this place...you guys are AWESOME!

I also want to add that I really enjoyed your SECOND post Howattman.

Boho,

The only reason a person would not go to heaven would be if they did not believe Jesus was their Lord and Savior.

Murderers and thiefs can go to heaven...surely a racist could.

I'll just add a few thoughts.

You can't force someone to change...you can only pray and plant seeds of truth and hope that someday change will be their reality.

Ray ;)

[Swanny]

Perhaps John's words are applicable:

"Anyone who claims to be in the light [a God lover] but hates his brother is still in darkness [is not a God-lover and is deceived]. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness: he does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded him." I Jn.2:9-11

Chapter 3 has much to say about the same subject. One of the defining features that all true incurable-God lovers have is love for people; people in general, and especially for people of the household of faith. Certainly not a love that only expresses itself in perfection, but a deep care for others is the direction that this love will be consistantly headed....this is guarranteed due to the change in nature brought about by the Holy Spirit in the new birth. Much more could be said in clarification on the subject, but....

Here's a relevant blog that I find helpful: http://idsaudio.com/blogging/?p=91

[Matt]

Swanny,
That was a great scripture.

[BLACK WOLF]

Swanny,

So..."Whoever loves his brother lives in the light and there is nothing in him to make him stumble."

Than why do Christians still continue to stumble throughout their lives?

I believe a person can be saved and still struggle with some issues they have delt with before such as racism...until the Holy Spirit makes the truth known to them.

Just because a person becomes saved does not mean they now know everything about right and wrong or have now become completely changed. Life is a learning process and sometimes things are revealed to us a little at a time and not all at once. Change is a growing process...and we should all hope to grow and become more Christ like everyday.

Ray ;)

[hoot gibson]

black wolf , i feel the same way you do on this one, being a christian is not as easy as people say it is , i dont think its as easy as asking for forgivness , and then walking the straight and narrow with out trouble , it is a constant chor for me to walk the line ( so to speek ) but i do my best , i study every day. i wish it was just as easy as asking forgivness and then doing whatever you want to do. but in this day and age it is really hard to put aside the temptations, and evil thoughts that creep in our heads , ( like racism ) but i will keep on fighting the fight as long as i can , i hope to be still fighting when i am called to heaven, , hoot

p.s. hope you can decifer my spelling,

[BLACK WOLF]

Hoot,

No problem reading your post. I consider you and many others here as warriors fighting side by side.

Ray ;)

[Cato]

Hoot,

Becoming a Christian is simple. although not necessarily easy for some. You just bow your will to God, and ask Christ to come into your life as Lord and Savior. It can happen in a moment.

However, what happens after that, walking the walk is one of the hardest things to do, because we must be continutally learning about how to more completely die to self. That my friend, I think you agree, is hard. :)

[Matt]

Hoot,
We are mortals living in a Mortal world. Of course we're going to make mistakes. Sometimes over and over again (speaking from expierence here). But that's why Christ died for us.

Your not alone. I know when the "Reverend" Jessie Jackson was screaming that all those people died in the Hurricane because they were black; I was pretty upset about that. Or when Tookie was executed and he said it was because he was black. The enemy (Satan) uses our emotion to stir us up to hate our brothers. Sometimes it's hard to controll those emotions. But we have too. I'm not a racist, but I get mad when I see the white man made to look like a devil. Like we want to actually see other people die for the color of their skin. Even typing about it, get's me upset.

But it's the Advisary at work. He's trying to divide this nation into hating each other for one reason or another. One day that will all change. It won't matter what color you are as long as you done that which was asked of you.

[Matt]

I was thinking, and I wanted to add one other thing. As mortal humans, which are carnal, we are going to have a lot of flaws. Jesus Christ is the only man to live a perfect life. But he wasn't really a man was he. He was God. But he did give us the atonement. I don't expect that I'm going to live a perfect life until I die. And I'll still have flaws when I die. But the atonement is a beutiful thing. Just put your shoulder to the wheel, beleive in Christ, it will all work out.

[Howattman54]

Well said, Matt!

As you and others have said, we are not expected to be perfect (because we cannot achieve perfection since were are flawed by Original Sin). We can, however, strive to live our lives in a manner that glorifies God and try to do the best we can. We can never repay our debt to Christ, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Howattman

[larry]

Let's not be so quick to dismiss the Scriptures because of our own short fallings. The Scriptures say that we all stumble in many ways, but that is in no way an excuse that we can claim. To say, " that's just the way I am" doesn't cut it against the Holy word of God. In fact the hard teachings of Scripture truely do magnify the glorious grace of God. If it were not for that grace ,we all would be destined to face the awful wrath of God.

But the passage in 1 John is a solemn warning to those who claim to be in Christ. God calls us to love all believers. The Amplified Bible may shed some more light on the passage.

starting at vs.7 "Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning: the old commandment is the message which you have heard [the doctrine of salvation through Christ]. Yet I am writing you a new commandment, which is true (is realized) in Him and in you, because the darkness (moral blindness) is clearing away and the true Light (the revelation of God in Christ) is already shining. Whoever says he is in the Light and [yet] hates his brother [Christian, born again child of God his Father] is in darkness even until now. Whoever loves his brother [believer] abides (lives) in the Light, and in It or in him there is no occasion for stumbling or cause for error or sin. But he who hates (detests, despises) his brother [in Christ] is in darkness and walking (living) in the dark: he is straying and does not percieve or know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes."

[BLACK WOLF]

Larry,

I don't think we dismissed scripture...Most of us use scripture to interpret scripture.

Definitely not making excuses...only discussing the facts.

I don't think anyone here said - "that's just the way I am".

We are ALL sinners and will continue to sin from time to time...but that is in NO way an excuse to just sit there and except that. God wants us to get off our butts and work on ourselfs with His help and guidence.

So larry...is a racist damned to hell solely based on him struggling with his sinful attitude even if he believes Jesus is his Lord and Savior?

Ray ;)

[Swanny]

Hi Ray, I apologize to all for not showing any empathy towards someone who is proffessing to love Christ and His Gospel of Grace, and yet is struggling with feelings of hate towards those of a differing skin color or race. I was running short of time this morning and hastily posted what Scripture came to mind.

I have full awareness of my own fleshly tendencies which war against me 24/7, and constantly need to be put off and replaced with Christ and His affections. It is a struggle that is of monumental proportions when viewed from my perspective, yet, when viewed from the perpspective of my Christ and what his atonement actually accomplished it becomes easier to grasp that His grace will not fail to

"teach us to say "no" to ungodliness and wordly passions and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for that blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. These, then, are the things you should teach...." Titus 2:12-15.

Having said the above, John sees love towards one another as a fundamental, defining feature of all those who have eyes to see what the Gospel of Grace really is. That God hasn't given us what wrath we deserve as his enemies (mercy), yet has given us righteousness and sonship to undeservingly feast at his banquet table will continually motivate those of us who have truly repented and turned to Christ to show the same attitude towards those around us regardless of skin color.

Yes, a person can struggle with racism and still be a genuine lover of Christ, but the qualifying feature will always be that repentance towards his sin of hatred will eventually accompany the error of his way. The scripture doesn't give time quantifications of how long afterwards either, but when confronted in love with the truth...the power of the Gospel will not fail to eventually produce repentance and genuine sorrow and remorse and a turning from racism (just like it did originally when that person went from death to life) to an embracing of love for the person. A process for sure, but nonetheless, a vital part of what it means to have the Spirit indwelling.

Did you read the blog posting? Would like to hear your thoughts.

In final words, the sin of hatred or racism will not be the reigning capital city as it once was before the knowledge of Christ, but if a person's life is characterized by unrepentant hatred towards others of different color...then the Spirit of Christ didn't make residence in that individual. See Rom. 8: 1-17

Back to Gal. 5:19,20 of which hatred is listed as a character quality in those who will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Sincerely hope that helps. :)

[BLACK WOLF]

Swanny,

Great post...my comments are in regaurds to passing judgement...I believe God is the only one who can pass judgement upon a person's salvation.

I agree...that racism is a pretty good indication that a person's heart is probably not indwelled with the Holy Spirit...BUT...it is by no means justification for any one of us to say they are damned to hell because they are racist.

Ray ;)

[BLACK WOLF]

Swanny,

About the blog...I personally don't see anything wrong with living forever...especially when it is side by side with our Creator and the rest of you guys ;)

Ray ;)

[larry]

Ray, I don't think I could respond any more eloquently than swanny just did.

However I would like to point out vs. 10 in 1 John;

" He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him."

I find an interesting word in that vs., the word "abide".

If you jump over to the gospel of John chapter 15 vs. 1-10, you will find that word used 10 times in vs. 4-10.

in vs.6 it says "If anyone does not abide in me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered: and they gather them into the fire, and they are burned."

What is evidenced when one abides in Christ ?

[larry]

Ray, I truely hope that you do not think that I am passing judgement upon anyone- I most certainly am not. All I did was to share some Scriptures, You did say that most of us use Scripture to interpret Scripture did you not?

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God - Ro. 10;17

[BLACK WOLF]

larry,

I'm not saying you ARE pasing judgement...I basically asked if you were by asking this question.

Is a racist damned to hell solely based on him struggling with his sinful attitude even if he believes Jesus is his Lord and Savior?

You asked - "What is evidenced when one abides in Christ?"

A changed heart is evident when one abides in Christ.

What happens to an alcoholic or a drug addict when they become a Christian?

Do they completely rid themselves of their addictions the moment they believe?

In some cases...yes...but what happens to the people that continue to struggle with it?

Again....I agree...that racism is a pretty good indication that a person's heart is probably not indwelled with the Holy Spirit...BUT...it is by no means justification for any one of us to say they are not saved because they are struggling with racism.

At some point, I can only believe that the Holy Spirit will make a racist aware of their sin at some point in time if they truly do believe.

Ray ;)

[robk]

i sent you a om and i hope it helps
rob k

[larry]

Ray, I agree with everything you have said, I find it unwise for us to pass judgement upon an individual based upon an area in which they are wrestling with. I do however find it equally unwise for us to make assumtions concerning an individual based simply upon a one time prayer or confession. The Scripture says we will know them by their fruit. And we are called to encourage one another, through the Scriptures, daily.

My father died suddenly of a heart attack a few years back, and to the best of my knowledge, never made a profession of faith. My mom is also not a believer. This weighs heavy upon my heart. I know the Word tell us that children are a blessing from the Lord, but so are our parents.

Boho, I would encourage you to continually point your mom to the grace of God displayed on the cross of calvery. And on her behalf , to pray without ceasing, in everything giving thanks.

"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completly: and may your whole spirit, soul, and body, be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it."

I pray this not only for you but for your mom also.

[BLACK WOLF]

larry,

SaaaWeeet! Amen to that!

I'm also in the same boat. My daughter and I are the only Christians in my immediate family and it too breaks my heart.

All I can do is continue to pray and try to set an example and plant seeds of scripture into their lives in hopes that one day those seeds will grab root.

My prayers are with you guys too.

Ray ;)

[Boho]

Thanks everyone for all the posts.
rob, I got your pm. Thanks. Tom

[Boho]

I Love her just the same. There's nothing I can do to change her feelings. She is totally set on it. I just wanted to get some opinions of some of the Christians here. Thanks guys.

[Boho]

I see where your coming from TJ. But I just wanted to get some opinions from Christians. But you are correct; God has the ultimate say so.