My 2 cents

[Camp Cook]

For some time now I have just been reading all the posts & would like to chime in....

First, I love my church. By that I mean, I agree with the doctrines proclaimed & adherred to. I love the people that fellowship there (Heb 10:24-25). I love the pastors & the fact that study God's word, show Him in their daily lives and proclaim the truth of scripture. AND as Luke 10 tells us, they are worthy & deserving of a wage, so therefore, they are paid.

I am soon to be 52 years old. I asked Jesus to come into my life when I was only 6 years of age. I am so thank for for the Godly Heritage I have as my parents, grandparents, and great grandparents and I am sure further back all loved and served the Lord & and determined to teach their children (and pray for them)in the ways of the Lord.

I have been part of many congregations over the years in many locations and I am so thankful that I have had a much different experience them Mr. McNeal. I have never attended a church that required my tithe. (though I do know of a catholic parrish that posted what people gave weekly in the church bulletin :) ) THey have been denominational churches, independent churches as well as a Fellowship. I have been part of congregations that were attached by the evil one where God was failed by good people. I have seen God heal congregations (people) who had lost their way. In all years I have only had one man who was the pastor who I came to a realization I could not sit under his teaching...I realize now, many years later that this man had a demon of arrogance in that we (the people) were to follow him as the Lord led him. I remember telling him that the Lord also led me & to not be surprised if the Lord led me in a different direction...and HE did. Praise God. I have never seen this arrogance in any other pastor whose teaching I have sat under.

I am thankful the believers I have served & worshipped with over the years. I need them in my life, for accountibility, for fellowship....for iron sharpening...for prayer support. Lee & I could not do the ministry God has called us to with out their support, period.

The reason I came & stayed at this site was because of this Discussion forum. I was heartbroken too many times on the other site reading the posts of "christians", who drove more people away, who gave unbelievers more reasons to ridicule & dislike christians. I was very saddened by the "Im going to heaven & your not" attitude that was so pervasive. I don't know who is going & who is not...only GOD knows & I know I am. If we are all chosen & there is no acceptance or rejection i.e. action on our part...then what is the point? Some of the folks who posted regularly on this forum rarely, if ever post anymore...and I miss them. I fear we have begun to preach at each other rather then up lift each other. It is one thing to discuss things in a way that we learn & grow it is another thing to argue & split hairs. I miss the discussion. I miss what I was learning from other's life experiences. I miss sharing what God has done & is doing in my life.

As most of you know, Lee & I are part of an Archery ministry. In our club there are as many as 8 or 9 different congregations represented. THere are doctrinal differences among us....but we all agree that we called to reach men & women with the love of Christ, build a relationship with them in order that we might be used by God to bring them to a saving knowlege Jesus CHrist.....crucified, risen & coming again. We have chosen to agree on the important things.....and the others are not important to us as a group. We must search the scriptures for ourselves on the issues that would divide us.
My church baptizes & has communion differently then most other churches....but that does not prohibit me from fellowshipping with those who do if differently (we get a bigger mansion though) :) ..what happened to the just kidding icon?

I have been here nearly a year now...for those of you who were here back then....I am finished now.

Please pass the sauerkraut. :)

[George Tsoukalas]

I agree. I particularly like your comments about reaching out to others. Well said. George

[larry]

:amen: campcook, very edifying post,

all except for the sauerkraut (yuck!) :)

larry

[WildmanSC]

Larry,

Homemade pepper Kraut will preach brother! My Dad used to work in a grocery store for 20 years. They made homemade Pepper Kraut and aged it for 90 days in 10 crock containers. You want to talk good? It wasn't anything like the stringy stuff they put on hot dogs!!

Camp Cook,

This is a great thread! Thanks for starting it. I would eat at your campfire anytime!! :amen: :amen: :shooting:

Bill

[Esquire]

Campcook,

As always, I'd pay a dollar for your two cents. I agree wholeheartedly.

Mike

[BLACK WOLF]

Amen! :amen:

Ray ;)

[Bill McNeal]

Camp cook, it is good to read a womans perspective on things, but I think, with all due respect , that you are allowing human emotion to guide your comments. Please let me explain.

It's very good to love the Church, not because of doctrines they proclaim, but rather because the Church is the Body of Christ, and that is what we should Love. We should "adhere" to His Doctrines, hence the natural love of our fellow Christians will flow forth. Out of that Body will rise prophets, teachers, pastors, and evangelists, whose call will be made clear by their willingness to serve, protect, stimulate, lift up, admonish, teach, correct, love, all in an unselfish, and uncompensated manner, while pointing to Jesus Christ as the BLAZING Center of EVERYTHING.

We must also remember that our rescue from the eternal death, into membership of this Body is not based on family heritage, and personal proclamations, nor is our Spiritual Wisdom based on the time we have been saved from death, although it seems as though it should be.

You had mentioned that I suggested a tithe as being "mandatory" in some churches. I think you misunderstand. What I said was, is that it is taught in many churches that not titheing is unChristian, and "robbing God". However most all churches have a bean counter who records who gives what every week, and it is in the "church" finacial report, but lets not get off subject.

One does not need to belong to numerous denominations, or attend their services to gather an understanding for the doctrine they teach. One need only listen to the teaching that comes from the mouths of individual members of such groups to gain a firm understanding. I have never attended a Catholic mass, a Kingdom Hall gathering, or entered a Mormon temple, but I know these people, and I have witnessed to them, and they are perhaps harder to preach to, than a prostitite, or drug addict because they cling to their doctrine, refusing to let it go, and embrace Christs Doctrine.

You mentioned that you have only seen arrogance in one pastor in 46 years?
Well CC, with all due respect, I do not think you are seeing clear. Christianity, or should I say "Churchianity" is wrought with them. One need only listen to the bombastic attacks against homosexuals by the likes of James Dobson, or the pro war preaching of Robertson, or general prosperity doctrine taught in the Baptist church, or the new age Gospel that claims God still blesses individual nations and so forth. In fact CC, if you want to find arrogance, unknowing arrogance perhaps, just look at any man who claims the title of Reverend, or Senior Pastor.

You said.........



"""I am thankful the believers I have served & worshipped with over the years. I need them in my life, for accountibility, for fellowship....for iron sharpening...for prayer support. Lee & I could not do the ministry God has called us to with out their support, period."""

Praise God to that. I, and my wife minister to the ill, elderly, and people with relational problems, and we draw heavy on our fellow Loved ones.

I would like to comment on something else you said.........

"""The reason I came & stayed at this site was because of this Discussion forum. I was heartbroken too many times on the other site reading the posts of "christians", who drove more people away, who gave unbelievers more reasons to ridicule & dislike christians. I was very saddened by the "Im going to heaven & your not" attitude that was so pervasive.""""

First CC, perhaps the greatest indicator that you are preaching the True Gospel is when not only heathens come at you, but when religous people come at you. Heathens dislike Christians because it is their nature. Religous people dislike Christians because their message cuts them deep, and exposes their hypocrisy, and it makes them privately examine themselves, and the doctrine they have been taught. Many escape the traps of Religion, and join in the Fellowship of Christians, yet some cannot overcome the pride, and traditions of their fathers, and simply became enraged, and seek to attack any Christian who points to their folly.

Paul told us to be united, and to be a good example to the unsaved, yet he also openly admonished the Corinithians for their perversion, and division. He called the Galations "bewitched Fools". Yes, he was talking to Christians, Christians who had allowed the doctrines of men steer them. CC, speaking the Truth, even in admonishment drives no one who is truely Chosen away. Nothing can pluck us from His hand. If it does, then we never belonged to Him in the first place.

Here we find the real purpose of your thread CC



"""I don't know who is going & who is not...only GOD knows & I know I am. If we are all chosen & there is no acceptance or rejection i.e. action on our part...then what is the point? """

You see, this is not a call for unity, or acceptance of other doctrines from you. This is a sublime thread taking issue with someone who teaches that God is Sovereign, and that man has no ability to will himself saved. Sorry CC, but regardless of the fluffy white bun, the meat of your sandwich is still a human desire to fight for mans glory. Trust me, your way is very subdued, and non-offensive. :) ....I have had men literally express hate towards me for suggesting Gods Sovereign Mercy.

You also said...........


"""Some of the folks who posted regularly on this forum rarely, if ever post anymore...and I miss them. I fear we have begun to preach at each other rather then up lift each other. It is one thing to discuss things in a way that we learn & grow it is another thing to argue & split hairs. I miss the discussion. I miss what I was learning from other's life experiences. I miss sharing what God has done & is doing in my life."""

God, give me Wisdom!

CC, please hear this with the love that is intended........ this forum is described in its listing as a place for Christian interaction. With that said, such interaction is not just limited to the lighter side of our Faith, ie edifying, embracing oneanother, sharing the good times, and so forth. These things are VITAL to our growth, but not the only things. A true minister of Christ is CALLED. He is not appointed by men, voted in, selected, or trained in institutes of higher learning. A True minister suffers in the chains of the Gospel. He is COMPELLED to preach. If he is driven out of one areana , he goes to another to preach. If he is villified, he proclaims 'Praise God'. If he is put on trial, he turns the witness box into a preaching box. If he is jailed, he ministers to the jailer. He is CALLED to preach Christ Jesus in Everything, in every deed, and word.

He is NOT incumbered by popularity polls, by inuendo,religous traditions or sarcasm. He is a prisoner of the Gospel that binds him in Spiritual chains. He cannot help himself. He is a man driven, a man called to longsuffering, not from his desire, or will but rather he is a chosen instrument of He Who Reigns on High. He seeks to serve the Lord without payment, without titles, without fanfare. You see CC, it's NOT about the "folks who regularly post here". It's not about your experiences, and what God has done for you. Its about God CC. It's about Jesus Christ, and what you have done for HIM!. We already know what He has done for you, and I. It's about His Suffering. Its about His Mercy, Its about HIS GLORY, and its about His Kingdom.

You will have to excuse me CC. I was not called out of death to placate a warm and fuzzy feeling among my Beloved Brethren. I was put here to Glorify Jesus Christ, HIS WAY, HIS DOCTRINE, and HIS PURPOSE. I could care less about Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, Mormon, Methodist, Church of God, Nazerene, Pentacostal, Adventist ..ect doctrine. They are not my Lords way, and I have no issue with them, unless they are held up as the Lords Way. My only concern with my Brethren is to Love them, and teach them in HIS WAY, which is given to us in transplanted hearts, and His Inspired Word.

It is when we begin to Glorify Jesus that men are brought to see our reverence for Him. The mockery that is percieved of Christianity is NOT from the Glorification of Him, but rather the mockery is born out of peddle squabbles of men who hold up their certain "denomination", or "Senior Pastor", or "Priest", or "Priestess", or "Father", or "Master", as truth. The mockery is made when we donate money to our local "church buildings" and "temples" to get better seating, better lighting, to get an addition, or a clerical raise, while little babies are dieing of starvation, and people in certain places recieve less care than our dogs do. The saddest mockery is when we look to our "church" and profess it to be "God fearing", while saying it must be some other "church", because heaven forbid, my "church" be easily decieved.


""""Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."""""""

Shalom!

[Esquire]

Bill McNeal,

A couple of observations. If you read the description on the "doors" to this forum before coming inside, you may have noticed - This is the tradtalk chapel. Think of it as a cyberfellowship. The invitation is, in part, to enjoy that fellowship.

Once your ideas about certain topics have been well aired, (and brother, some of them have been!!) you might consider exercising some restraint. You may feel "compelled" to stalk the threads of this forum, hunting for whom you may admonish, but consider the following.

If you truly are the harbinger of truth, speak that truth in love a few times, then let the Holy Spirit do his work. You may enjoy viewing thread after thread as an opportunity for admonishment, but others take no pleasure in it. Especially when they begin to get the feeling that almost any and every remark is going to earn them a lengthy stern lecture from you.

Eventually (and unfortunately) folks may even come to ignore you, and simply talk around you. I know that people who scream the most at their children generally have the most unruly children. The parents have lost their effectiveness.

Please think about what I've said. It really isn't necessary to repost what I've said phrase by phrase with a "Mike, Mike, what you don't understand is . . ." Consider it said. :)

Mike

[DAS]

Esquire,
I think that is a good thought for all of us to keep in mind for all the forums. It is easy to slip into a sniping pattern without really realizing it. It's different when you are face to face with people. You get a better sense of the effect of your words.

[Bill McNeal]

Mike, Mike, Mike, ..... :) .........I could not resist.

"""A couple of observations. If you read the description on the "doors" to this forum before coming inside, you may have noticed - This is the tradtalk chapel. Think of it as a cyberfellowship. The invitation is, in part, to enjoy that fellowship."""

I know I really enjoy it. It is perhaps the best grounded forum I have yet to see.

"""Once your ideas about certain topics have been well aired, (and brother, some of them have been!!) you might consider exercising some restraint.""""

Well brother, that works both ways. I can't help but think if I was preaching certain doctrine that others do preach, air, and expound on it, would not be asked to be restrained . Just an observation though :)


"""You may feel "compelled" to stalk the threads of this forum, hunting for whom you may admonish, but consider the following."""

Gee Mike, I don't consider responding to threads that mention your name as "stalking". I don't "hunt" for people either Mike. There are certain people, yourself included, who can almost be guaranteed to respond to my posts. I do not consider that "stalking for admonishment" or hunting. However, in all honesty, I do feel that you are the one who takes these threads personally. I for one enjoy discourse, and the discharging of my ministry. I enjoy it personally, via the world wide web, and through articles, and letters. You will NEVER find me asking someone to restrain what they feel to be their ministerial gifts.

""""If you truly are the harbinger of truth, speak that truth in love a few times, then let the Holy Spirit do his work.""""

Problem is Mike, I never proclaimed to be the "harbinger of Truth", and I would challenge you to show any posts in which I have. I simply point to the Gospel of Christ Jesus as the Truth. Some may find that uncomfortable, but it is not my truth, but rather His.


"""You may enjoy viewing thread after thread as an opportunity for admonishment, but others take no pleasure in it."""

Again, I only take pleasure in discharging the Gospel. Admonishment is simply a facet of the Christians ministry work, and no true saint pleasures in admonishing fellow Christians who are caught in deception. However, if an admonishment wakes people out of slumber, or creates growth in Spiritual infants, than the fruit is surely pleasurable!


"""Especially when they begin to get the feeling that almost any and every remark is going to earn them a lengthy stern lecture from you."""

Come on Mike. I have been called "immature", "divisive", "arrogant" and so forth on this forum. it rolls right off. I have people incinuate alot of things, and as for lectures Mike...?........Well, perhaps you should re-read your post to me........ :)

"""Eventually (and unfortunately) folks may even come to ignore you, and simply talk around you. I know that people who scream the most at their children generally have the most unruly children. The parents have lost their effectiveness."""

Well Mike, being ignored by certain people can have its postives. Without having to sift through posts that are of a personal nature, it makes it easier to respond to people who are truely interested in lifting up Jesus Christ.

"""Please think about what I've said. It really isn't necessary to repost what I've said phrase by phrase with a "Mike, Mike, what you don't understand is . . ." Consider it said."""

Too late bro, but maybe I'll just direct comment on the next lecture........hehehe......... :) ..........In love!

Shalom!

[Camp Cook]

Mr. McNeal:

I was simply stating that my experience has not been the same as yours.

I have seen arrogance in more then one minister, but only in one who was MY pastor & I chose to move on so he was no longer my pastor. I have also seen arrogance in lay people. Arrogance is not from God.

I stated that I had been involved in different denominations only to show that my experience was not based on one denominational experience. I am currently part of a “fellowship” of churches. There is no hierarchy issuing commands on how each church is to function. We are a fellowship in the sense that each church is independent in ownership & structure but we fellowship based our statement of faith & the support of missionaries around the world.

I also stated that I am thankful for a Godly heritage…I in no way implied I was saved because of it. Scripture teaches that the sins of the father are passed on generation to generation. I believe the converse to be true as well…scripture teaches that we are to train up our children in the ways of the Lord. I am thankful for parents who did that…and for their parents who did that and so on. I had a choice to accept or reject their training.

I have never been part of a congregation that simply appointed or hired a man to preach. I know many men who are pastors, including my father, my brother and a brother-in-law. All of them are “called”. All of them are Godly men. My church has many pastors, some are paid, some are not. All of them are men who have earned my respect and men that I can go to for counsel. They are still just men. They are not with out mistake and have never claimed to be. I have never put them on a pedestal. All of them have stated in the pulpit that we are to hold them accountable to the Word of God. We are never to take what they say as “gospel”…we are responsible to search the scriptures for ourselves.

You make many generalizations regarding churches & I am taking issue with those generalizations because while some of what you say is true of some churches, in my experience, the opposite is true. You make it sound like all churches are like the Crystal Cathedral and that all ministers are like Robert Schuller & his prosperity theology. I personally do not find that to be true. Pews in my church are open to who ever gets there first, regardless of what they drop in the offering plate. We support many outreaches, not only financially but with physical labor. Many a hungry person has been fed & clothed. Our church building is open to the community for their use as well.

I do believe that God is Sovereign and I thank Him for His mercy but only He knows who is chosen or who will accept or reject His gift. This is where I think people here have been splitting hairs and it is a game of semantics.

I believe scripture is very clear & on this we agree….we are here to Glorify God. How do you define glorify? He is glorified through what He is doing in the lives of His people. I glorify him because of who He is AND because of what He has done & is doing in my life. I don’t deserve it. I serve HIM because of what HE did for ME and through that HE is glorified.


When I said I missed the discussions of the past, it is not that I miss the “warm & fuzzy”. We had many good discussions & sometimes we just agreed to disagree. We have had many come here, seeking. I have encouraged many, regardless of their spiritual status, to come to this site because of what they would learn from those here. I appreciated so much the way Cueball, Cato & others responded to them. God uses people to further His kingdom. Now I hesitate to post & when I do, to choose my words very carefully for fear of every word or phrase being picked apart. I do not believe, based on the many who no longer post, that I am the only one who feels this way. This is what makes me sad.

We disagree on pre-destination vs freewill. I can live with that.

We disagree on the validity of the local church & its leadership. I can even live with that.

Our disagreement on the validity of the Trinity, is much harder to live with, but I can.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but it appears to me that you cannot live with those differences because you bring them into every subject posted. No one is asking you change your views. But please do not continue to tell us that our views / convictions are based on “churchianity” and not scripture. I respectfully disagree. I am not deluded or indoctrinated. I have not concluded my spiritual journey here on earth and while I hit a valley now & then, I pray that the journey continues on an upward path.

With that being said, I am at peace

And now I am going to go eat the sauerkraut. (I tried to find that old thread on the old site but couldn’t find it…..must have been looking on the wrong forum) :)

[Bill McNeal]

CC, the fact that you started this thread points to the fact that you are the one who has a problem with what I say. The fact that you list what your opposed to ,only further points to YOU having the problem with me. You see your thread was simply a veiled attack at my belief that God is the Sovereign God who Choses those to be Merciful to.

The fact that you have to try and defend hirling pastors is evidence that you have a problem with what I say, especially considering you have pastors in your family. You see CC, you simply don't like what I am saying. Your angle to get me to stop is to incinuate that I am running people off. I have no doubt that certain people would love for me stop preaching, what I am preaching here, and just preach the typical American Church doctrine that keeps the Body of Christ in Spiritual infancy.

My wife Joy who reads these posts remarked to me about an hour ago that "sadly many Christians are kept in Spiritual infancy where they are controlled like a child."...She said "by not growing into Spiritual adulthood, the church leaders can manipulate them for their purposes". She is dead right. The most dangerous thing in a religous church is an adult Christian. A Christian who questions the time worn practices of religous tradition.

You see CC, I have not presented my beliefs here in a rude fashion. I have not proclaimed to be without error. I have not exalted myself over the Body. I have not promoted a religous denomination, or doctrines written by men. I just simply state beliefs that run opposite of most religous indoctrination. I have not broken any forum rules, called anyone names, or made personal posts about others.

I simply have stated that religion corrupts, that doctrines of men are not Christian, and that there is One God. If what I say bothers you, then ask yourself this........If you are soo convinced of your beliefs, why does it bother you? Why are you soo threatened by what I say?. If I am wrong, I asked to be rebuked, so long as it is a Scriptural based rebuking, and not one born out of emotion, or simple dislike of me, or what I am teaching.

Now, I am going to say/ask something that will no doubt enlist howls from among the New Age Church, but here goes........CC, this is a cyber "chapel" a gathering place for the saints so to speak. Let me ask you, when you are gathered in fellowship in your local congregation, do your elders permit women to teach over a man? If you have a question, who do turn to?

Shalom!

[Cato]

Bill,

I feel your intentions are good, but I must agree with CC. Whether or not you realize that you are doing it, you tend to come across at times as hard nose and insensitive to another brother in Christ's viewpoint. I doubt if you mean it that way.

CC said:
"We disagree on pre-destination vs freewill. I can live with that. We disagree on the validity of the local church & its leadership. I can even live with that.
Our disagreement on the validity of the Trinity, is much harder to live with, but I can.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but it appears to me that you cannot live with those differences because you bring them into every subject posted. No one is asking you change your views. But please do not continue to tell us that our views / convictions are based on “churchianity” and not scripture. I respectfully disagree. I am not deluded or indoctrinated."

I have felt this way as well. At one time, I personally felt you were condeming my denomination as a whole, but chose at that time not to respond.

You bring a lot of knowledge and zeal to this forum. To me, one of the huge benefits of having this forum is to fellowship and have fun with other Christians, who also love archery. We have a unique opportunity to have our own little cyber fellowship.

Against the advice of most non Christians, Robert chose to give us this opportunity. It came with huge potential to influence non believers, fence straddlers, and even other brothers in Christ. But if every thread turns in to a theological argument, it will soon become ineffective.

I hope we will all resolve with God's direction not to let this happen. I hope we will all pray about how God may use us, and this forum, to glorify Him.

Cato

[Bill McNeal]

Cato, friend, brother!........I do not have a problem with you taking issue with my percieved condemnation of your particular denomination. I should point out that I am incapable of condemning anyone, since I myself have been freed from a condemnation myself.

For what is worth, I simply point out the unBiblical nature of ALL denominations, so please don't feel singled out. Now, with that said, if you feel my doing this opposes Scripture, then PLEASE, by all means point out my error. You see, THAT is how the Body is grown out of infancy, into maturity. If you can show me Scriptural support that religous denominationalism should be respected, and held up as Godly, then I will publicly confess my error.

However, simply stating that you dislike what I say, does not cut it. At one time, I disliked the teachings of Scripture , because they could not mesh with my lifestyle, and I had little tolerance for any minister who tried to preach to me. Since getting my heart transplant, I now devour the Word as a sort of Daily Bread, and seek to proclaim what I once was blind to.

To me, being "hard nosed" is refusing to confess that maybe the religous doctrine that controls modern Christianity could be in error. Being a "hardnose" is refusing to break from tradition. So, I have no problem being told I am this, or doing that. Just please support your case with Scripture, as to build up the Church..........thanks bro!

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

It would be a breath of fresh air to see the bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness and longsuffering displayed on this forum. It might serve us all well to consider what is the purpose of this forum? Is it to honor and glorify Jesus Christ? The Bible tells us "In everything ye say and do, do all to the glory of Jesus Christ."

If we admonish one another, but do not do it in loving kindness, with humbleness of mind and meekness and longsuffering, even as Christ did as our example, then we are misusing and abusing our priviliges on this forum. I will be the first to admit that I have not always done that myself. And I have sent an email acknowledging that to be the case, repenting of it and asking for forgiveness.

Everyone of us should keep one thing in mind, we are not on here as preachers or teachers, we are on here as traditional archers who share a love for the Lord Jesus Christ. I might ask of everyone a couple of questions:

1) Do you celebrate Christmas?
2) Do you celebrate Easter.

I'll give everyone awhile to answer the question, and then continue my thoughts.

In Christ,

Bill Lamb

[Bill McNeal]

Bill, I totally agree with your post, with the exception of the part about not being preachers, and ministers here. Though I have had great times bowhunting, building bows, shooting bows and so forth for years, I consider it insignificant, and simply a hobby.

If it happens to be a lead in to ministry, then sobeit. I am not a bowhunter who preaches, but rather a preacher who bow hunts.

As for Christmas, and Easter..........

I personally do not "celebrate" these days, since becoming a Christian, because they are not Biblical days of worship. Besides, I view everday as a living in the Sabbath rest, and everyday is symbolic to Christs Birth to me. However, I will wish folks "merry Christmas" and such, and I even enjoy singing the old "Christmas" hymns to the ladies in the rest homes.

The Bible tells us to not judge with regards to a "holyday", so if someone wishes to set aside a "holyday" to praise Jesus, I think its great, so long as they do not teach that not observing their "holyday" is sinful.

Shalom!

[Cueball]

Bill, are you reading these post. Man everybody has basically said your offending them and making this a place there not as comfortable visiting and you always respond with more soap box preaching.

I will say it clearly just this once you have made me dodge the christian site for a while. I don't like arguments and thats all this place has become. And I lay the blame on your shoulders. I am asking nicely please reconsider your attitude on this site or you just might find your the only guy coming here. What a shame that would be.


.................................................. ........Roby...................................... ........

No response needed

[Bill McNeal]

Roby, I will respond.

Please, feel free to place the blame on me. Man has always had an inborn desire to blame someone for something, and considering that my Lord who was perfect, bore the blame for humanity's filth, a regenerated piece of crap like myself will be more than glad to bear the blame for the goings on around here, and your desire to not frequent here.

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

Roby, I will respond.

Please, feel free to place the blame on me. Man has always had an inborn desire to blame someone for something, and considering that my Lord who was perfect, bore the blame for humanity's filth, a regenerated piece of crap like myself will be more than glad to bear the blame for the goings on around here, and your desire to not frequent here.

Shalom!

Bill,

That is a pathetic response. To elevate yourself to the same plane of the Lord, i.e., "...to bear the blame for the goings on around here...", borders on blasphemy and you don't even realize what you are saying. Your immaturity in the Lord is showing so brilliantly that it is blinding, and believe me it is not because you are light, but rather because you enjoy taking each and every opportunity to flame!! Your responses over the past couple of days have dripped with sarcasm. And Roby hit the nail on the head, you will soon have only Bill McClean to flame! The sad part is broken records sometimes get stuck and no longer play, but unfortunately that is not the case with you. We are all out of the same human garbage dump and it is only by the grace of Almighty God, the shedding of blood by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that our attention is brought to the gospel message of Christ Jesus and Him crucified and off of ourselves.

Bill, you declare that you are just a preacher proclaiming the gospel. But, your message has very little to do with the gospel. If you want to know what the real focus of the gospel message is, read I Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. In effect, what Paul is saying in this letter to the Church at Corinth is "If you only had the mental capacity to remember one fact, let it be Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." Knowing that one fact is all one needs to know to witness to the world. And the Holy Spirit can then take that witness and bring conviction to the heart of a lost soul.

All of the cuts and pastes you have done quoting other men is a broken record. It's funny how it's alright for you to cut and paste quotes from men, but when someone else posts scripture, SCRIPTURE mind you and not the cut and pasted quote of anybody but the scriptures, and comments on it, it is (by YOUR JUDGEMENT), mere repeating of denominational error. You sit yourself up as judge, jury and chief prosecutor. Enjoy the court my friend. You are the one doing the judging and accusing everybody else of judging you. You can't see the forest for the trees. Back up, sit down, and enjoy the view a spell. Maybe, just maybe, you'll get a glimpse of the forest.

Bill Lamb

[Bill McNeal]

Bill Lamb, you said..........



"""That is a pathetic response. To elevate yourself to the same plane of the Lord, i.e., "...to bear the blame for the goings on around here...", borders on blasphemy and you don't even realize what you are saying."""

Bill, I in no way elevated myself with the Lord. I simply pointed out that men love to blame someone, or something for their problems, lack of knowledge,and anger. By pointing out that my Lord was blamed for preaching a Gospel that flew in the face of religous people, I simply was stating that a a lowly piece of crap like myself could expect the same thing. My ancient Brothers Paul, Peter, and James were blamed. Am I any better than they?

You also said...........



"""Your immaturity in the Lord is showing so brilliantly that it is blinding, and believe me it is not because you are light, but rather because you enjoy taking each and every opportunity to flame!! """


Bill, calling me insecure does not bother me. You did it a few weeks ago, when you lost control and this rant is no different. I have no doubt you will do it again, because my preaching angers you. You will apologize again, and I will accept it. As for flaming. To me flaming is purposely starting threads about certain people. In the last two days one member, and one monitor has done this. Funny thing is, is that I see no responce from you about this "flaming", but rather I see you joining in.


"""Your responses over the past couple of days have dripped with sarcasm. And Roby hit the nail on the head, you will soon have only Bill McClean to flame! The sad part is broken records sometimes get stuck and no longer play, but unfortunately that is not the case with you."""

No, my responces have left you, and some others unable to defend your teachings of men, and created doctrines, causing you anger, and frustration. You see Bill, you will not see one single post where I have selected anyone to give a behavioral admonishment to, like you have. I simply respond, kindly, and with respect to those who do that to me. I am here to preach/teach the Gospel. I honestly think you have other motives.

You said..........


"""We are all out of the same human garbage dumb and it is only by the grace of Almighty God, the shedding of blood by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that our attention is brought to the gospel message of Christ Jesus and Him crucified and off of ourselves."""

I agree with that

"""Bill, you declare that you are just a preacher proclaiming the gospel. But, your message has very little to do with the gospel."""

My message has very little to do with the gospel of religous denominationalism. The world as enough false preachers, and false prophets peddleing that stuff. I preach the Gospel of the Holy Scriptures. I point to them as Truth, not the teachings, doctrines, and covenants of men, and THAT is what angers religous folks. Just yesterday I was actually asked by a member to "stop answering with Scripture"




"""If you want to know what the real focus of the gospel message is, read I Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. In effect, what Paul is saying in this letter to the Church at Corinth is "If you only had the mental capacity to remember one fact, let it be Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." Knowing that one fact is all one needs to know to witness to the world. And the Holy Spirit can then take that witness and bring conviction to the heart of a lost soul."""

That is EXACTLY what I preach.

"""All of the cuts and pastes you have done quoting other men is a broken record. It's funny how it's alright for you to cut and paste quotes from men, but when someone else posts scripture, SCRIPTURE mind you and not the cut and pasted quote of anybody but the scriptures, and comments on it, it is (by YOUR JUDGEMENT), mere repeating of denominational error."""

Bill, the fact you embrace ancient catholic doctrine leaves you little room to point fingers. The "pastes" I have made only bother you because they counter traditional religous teachings. I never claimed that the writings of Zen, Chiapetti, Viola, and so forth were perfect, they are not. They just represent a different view outside your view, and your pride will simply not allow you to accept the fact that you, and your doctrine my be wrong.

You said ....

"""You sit yourself up as judge, jury and chief prosecutor. Enjoy the court my friend. You are the one doing the judging and accusing everybody else of judging you. You can't see the forest for the trees. Back up, sit down, and enjoy the view a spell. Maybe, just maybe, you'll get a glimpse of the forest."""


Sorry Bill, but I am not the one creating posts to calling others immature, and blasphemors. I am not the one starting threads mocking people. I am not the one who is being lead by anger. You see, I will not sink to that. Though I feel you are driven by anger, I will not start a thread, or post claiming that. I will claim it responces such as this. You see Bill, my concern is preaching the Gospel in the Bible. There will always be men such as yourself trying to detract me from that. Men who try to turn the light off the Gospel, and into personal character assasination. Heres a revelation Bill.........It won't work.

Shalom!

[Esquire]

Bill McNeal said "Just yesterday I was actually asked by a member to "stop answering with Scripture"

Actually Bill, I said that when two people read the same thing (be it scripture or anything else) and they come to opposite conclusions, it is customary for them to talk about why they reached those opposite conclusions. For those two people, simply reading the passage out loud back and forth repeatedly will not help them figure out why they are not in agreement. A conversation would be needed.

It was for this reason and in this context that I asked for your words and said, basically, "hey brother! Don't just read me the verses. You and I have already read em! And we reached different conclusions after reading em. Now, if you're willing, let's talk about em, Bill to Mike. :) "

:cheers:

[Bill McNeal]

***For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.***

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

Bill M,

I will not respond to most of your last post. It in and of itself speaks volumes in regards to what I and others have been saying. I will address only the following:

"Bill, you declare that you are just a preacher proclaiming the gospel. But, your message has very little to do with the gospel. If you want to know what the real focus of the gospel message is, read I Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. In effect, what Paul is saying in this letter to the Church at Corinth is "If you only had the mental capacity to remember one fact, let it be Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." Knowing that one fact is all one needs to know to witness to the world. And the Holy Spirit can then take that witness and bring conviction to the heart of a lost soul."

Bill, you "cleverly" divided this statement up into "Bill, you declare that you are just a preacher proclaiming the gospel. But, your message has very little to do with the gospel." and continued your homily of you would refuse to follow the doctrines of men and denominations. Then you commented on "If you want to know what the real focus of the gospel message is, read I Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. In effect, what Paul is saying in this letter to the Church at Corinth is "If you only had the mental capacity to remember one fact, let it be Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." Knowing that one fact is all one needs to know to witness to the world. And the Holy Spirit can then take that witness and bring conviction to the heart of a lost soul." by saying "That is what I preach."

Bill, once again the forest and trees syndrome is tripping you up. For the most part, on every thread that has been started on this forum in the past couple of weeks you have introduced your mantra of "churchianity, denominations are unscriptural, the Trinity is unscriptural, all denominational doctrines come from the Catholic Church, the Elect, ad nauseum." That was precisely the point in my quoting of I Cor 2:2. You aren't preaching the gospel of Christ Jesus and Him crucified, you are laboriously repeating the gospel of Bill McClean.

And everytime you throw out a challenge to anyone to "...prove it to me with scriptures...", you dismiss the scriptures presented as "doctrines of men and denominations." Sorry my friend, that dog don't hunt and it's just about worn to a frazzle.

I submit to you that both of us have been somewhat lacking in humility, being longsuffering, meekness and a myriad of other characteristics of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ towards each other. It is time for the preaching at each other to stop. I think it is probably time that this forum have a mission statement to clearly define its purpose. I would encourage Papa Bull and the Moderators to develop such a mission statement and every member of the forum endeavor to follow the mission of the forum and not their own mission or agenda.

Bill Lamb

[Bill McNeal]

Bill Lamb,

I will continue to preach/teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I will continue to teach that He is the Sovereign Lord, and that His Election supercedes the opinions, and will of men.

I will continue to teach that the doctrines of men have no relation to the Gospel of Jesus. I will continue to use the Holy Scriptures as my source of Wisdom. If this offends you, or anyone else, I am sorry. I will not change my teaching to "fit in". I have not resorted to calling you, or anyone else names. I have not started inuendo laiden threads. I have not remarked about your maturity, or incinuated any desire to have you, or anyone else change, alter, reduce, the tone, and content of their message. I feel secure in Him, that I can answer all questions asked, or directed at me. This includes those that seek to mock, and ridicule me. So please do not include me in your "we have both been lacking" comment.

Now, if you are willing to debate Gods Word in a gentlemen like fashion, then we can proceed. However, in light of Roberts post note, I will no longer address you here if you continue to single me out in your posts, calling me names and such. I gave you my home phone #, and asked you to bring such opinions to me privately, and not here on this forum. My # is available for anyone who wishes to say personal things towards me. I feel it is the honorable, and Christian thing to do.

Shalom!

[Esquire]

Bill,

I once asked you to engage with me privately. We had traded scriptures and theology until I felt that the argument had reached the point of diminishing returns. You categorically refused to talk with me in private. Now you are publically berating others for not wanting to talk with you in private. That hardly seems fair.

You really can't have your cake, and eat it too. I won't expect you to play nice (although I wish you would), but I will ask you to play fair.

The thread was "How do you know that you're saved?"

Esquire:

If you think it would be profitable to continue this discussion via private messages, I am open to that, as time allows. I believe we can involve multiple parties. Some here may be interested in joining such a study. With all respect, I think that the usefulness of this public discussion has reached a point of diminishing returns.

McNeal:

Mike . . . if you have no desire to publicly rebuke me with Scripture, then I see little purpose to engage you privately. Your accusations were made publicly, and it is there they should be supported.

[Cueball]

The truth can hurt sometimes.


.......................................Roby....... ....................................

[Bill McNeal]

Mike, I do not consider PM private. I consider "private" hearing your voice. Your plea to me was to basically to get me to stop my public teaching, and take that particular thread to a private place or group, and I said I was not interested because it belongs in public. I then asked you rebuke my teaching in public if you could. You see Mike, you just don't like what I am saying. I am not breaking the forum rules. My posts are are not personal attacks, or slanders. I do not believe that what you, Ray, and Bill Lamb teach is correct but I have not started any threads about you, or singled you out.





However, since you too have singled me out for admonishment, and directed posts at me , I ask that you too give me a call. My phone # is 443-340-3241. Generally that is the best way to reach me. I have given this # out to a few other members urging them to call me also. None have so far. I do this because I think that it is an honorable way to deal with a situation, rather than starting personal threads, and posts. The # is open to anyone who wishes to speak, or fellowship.

Roby my friend, the truth does hurt. It causes people to get angry, and call for the truth to be sanctioned.

Shalom

[Esquire]

Bill,

It was not a plea to get you to stop your "teaching". The issue had been hashed and re-hashed. Like others have been. I had provided much scripture along the way. The topic had been throroughly exhausted, and was no longer of general benefit, as I saw it.

You actually said you were not interested because I was not able to refute you with scripture. I and many others had provided our scriptural basis for disagreement several times in the thread already.

I did not want us to continue to clash and grind with each other, doing damage to the subject, scripture or the forum.

Thank you for the number. I will call you later today.

Mike

[Bill McNeal]

Sounds great!