your thoughts

[hoot gibson]

first id like to say hello to all , and to tell you that i enjoy reading on this forum very much . my question to you is , everywhere i read in my bible it tells me that if i asked forgiveness, it will be granted ,eternal life with christ , what a great feeling . but when you go to mark:16 verse 16 and it sais . he that beliveth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that beliveth not , shall be damned. can you be saved without being baptized?? looking forward to reading your responces.. hoot

[BLACK WOLF]

Well hello hoot,

Great question.

I believe baptism in the sense of spiritual baptism is what is needed.

The physical act of baptism is a representation of what happens within the spirit, so yes a person can be saved without physically being baptised. We are born again of the spirit, not the flesh.

A person can believe there is a God, but they also can believe that He is not their Lord and Savior.

Satan believes in God and knows all to well exactly who He is, but he is not saved because he doesn't believe God is his Lord and Savior.

When a person believes that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, they become born again and therefore they have been baptised by the Holy Spirit.

I think physical baptism is a nice gesture towards God and a witness to all those that see it that you do believe that Jesus is your Lord and Savior.

I got physically baptized about a year ago...not because I felt I had to...but because I wanted to as an expression of my love towards God.

Ray ;)

[BLACK WOLF]

Here's a pic

Ray ;)

[hoot gibson]

cool picture black wolf , and thank you for your responce.. hoot

[Cato]

Good question for discussion. I'm sure others will jump in there.

There are numerous New Testament verses that seem quiet clear that baptism is not essential for salvation. The theif on the cross, for example, could not have been baptised. Jesus told Nichodemus you must be "born again". There are others. I will try to find a few minutes to get my Bible and run some more down.

In the case of the Mark verses, my guess is that Mark assumed any true convert would consider baptism a normal part of the salvation experience. Baptism is a way you publicly say to the world that you wish to die to the old life (submerged under water, symbolic of entering the grave) and rise again to a completely new life. Jesus said, if you confess me before men, I will confess you before my Father. So for any true convert, who is really ready to ask Jesus to come into his life as Lord and Savior, it seems the evidence of that decision would be to tell the world. Any reluctance seems to imply some kind of partial committment.

I hope this doesn't seem harsh. God is love, and He wants our hearts. Baptism is not essential. But the desire to be babtized seems to be a normal outgrowth of a changed heart.

Somebody will do a better job than this, but maybe this will help.

Cato

[Matt]

Yes, I beleive baptisim is essential. Jesus was baptized. Out of all the people on earth he is probably the least that needed to prove anything or have his sins washed away. :) But he did it because baptisim is law and even the savior must follow the law. We're not excused from it either.

[Esquire]

With all respect to my friend Matt, I think Cato has adressed the question accurately according to scripture.

In Ephesians 2:8-9 it says "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast." If baptism is a necessary component for salvation then we are saying that Christ's work on the cross is not enough. We need to add something that we do (baptism) to what He did in order to make salvation complete. To say what God did is not enough, not complete, runs contrary to Scripture. Other Scriptures confirm this:

Romans 10:9-10 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

1 Peter 1:18-19 "Knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ."

If Christ's blood redeems us, then baptism cannot earn that which has already been purchased.

I think Cato captured it well when he said that "Baptism is not essential. But the desire to be baptized seems to be a normal outgrowth of a changed heart."

Mike

BTW, Hoot. I'm sorry it took so long to respond, and to welcome you to Tradtalk and to this forum. Welcome!

[Matt]

It's fine Mike. I didn't expect to be agree'd with. I just couldn't help throwing :2cents: in there.

[CM Sackett]

Points To Ponder...


"...I think physical baptism is a nice gesture towards God..." No sir. It is a direct command of our Sovereign Master, Jesus...

1. "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Therefore... go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." (...emphasis added) Mathew 28:18-20a

2. "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

Whoever believes... and is baptized... will be saved..." (...emphasis added) Mark 16:15-16a

______________________________________________


"....In the case of the Mark verses, my guess is that Mark assumed any true convert would consider baptism a normal part of the salvation experience..." No sir. Mark wrote (as did all of the vessels Jehovah used to leave this record of His word... the Bible) as directed by the Holy Spirit, not his assumptions. In any case, these 'verses' are not the words of John Mark at all, but are rather a DIRECT QUOTE from our pierced Provider and King (see above...)

NOTE: Consider also that the first (and toughest) audience of the Gospel... were JEWS. Prostletites (sp) were the ONLY PEOPLE they were used to seeing baptized... (it was actually, historically thought of by Jews as "demeaning"... beneath them).
______________________________________________


"...I think Cato captured it well when he said that "Baptism is not essential...." No, my dear Friend. Consider the following: 'baptism' was not the bored suggestion of a tipsied synagogue foreman, it IS a DIRECT COMMAND of Him to whom ALL authority has been given. And its place (as a command) is as established, strong AND crucial for obedience that pleases the Father as the one that unflinchingly demands "belief"/"faith", and those that clearly draw the line between the 'free gift of God' and a paycheck of Death, over "repentance", "confession" and "love". The command to be baptized is as horrifyingly inescapable for the obedient adopted sons and daughters of the Most High as the one that declares "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body..." Matthew10:28a

If not... then most assuredly the same rationale that negates both its liberating and horrifying value... will work with equal efficacy on any other command uttered by a Son of God on the way to His OWN wrenchingly complete surrender... (see: Matthew 26:36-46 for the sobering reminder of how uncomfortable/inescapable total surrender tends to be).

______________________________________________

...to be continued.

[CM Sackett]

Points To Ponder II...


The One to whom ALL authority, in Heaven... AND on earth has been given (Matthew 28:18), and Who holds the keys to Death AND Hades...(Revelation 1:18) made it clear, while he still walked among our forebrethren with an unpierced body, that obedience to HIS commands would be indespensible for any who would claim kinship to Him.

1. "If you love Me, you will obey what I command..." John 14:15

2. "If you obey My commands, you will remain in My love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in His love..." John 15:10

3. "You are my friends... if you do what I command." John 15:14

4. "...everyone who hears these words of Mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock." Matthew 7:24

5. "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." John 14:23

[Esquire]

Sackett,

I am with you. Maybe I should clarify what I mean by essential. Obedience to our Lord is always essential and never optional.

But I say that an unbaptized man or woman who dies a physical death without having been baptized in not thereby, and soley thereby, damned, despite the "condition of their heart."

The thief on the cross, and other true deathbed redemptions, are not barred entry into God's presence of their Redeemer and Maker (for example) because they failed to seal their redemption with this sacred outward act of obedience.

I am not saying that baptism is optional, or that it is 'no big deal'. But I am saying that it not that without which we are surely damned.

Mike

[Stagmitis]

More food for thought.......


Baptism
Water Baptism - According to The New Testament

WHY BE BAPTIZED?

Because you want to follow Christ's example
"At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan river."

Because Christ commanded it
Jesus said, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."
- Matthew 28:19,20

Because it shows you are a believer
"...many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized."
- Acts 18:8

Because obeying Christ's command shows you know him
"We know that we have come to know Him if we obey his commands."
- 1 John 2:3

WHAT IS THE MEANING OF WATER BAPTISM?

It is a symbol of Christ's burial and resurrection and of our spiritual baptism - our identifying with Christ in our salvation
"Christ died for our sins...he was buried...and he was raised on the third day."
- 1 Corinthians 15:3,4

"...having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead."
- Colossians 2:12

It is a symbol of your new life as a Christian
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"
- 2 Corinthians 5:17

"We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
- Romans 6:4

IS BAPTISM NECESSARY FOR SALVATION?

Baptism doesn't make you a believer. It shows that you are already one! Nor does baptism "save" you. Only your faith in Christ does that. Baptism is like a wedding ring -- it is the outward symbol of the commitment you have already made in your heart.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith...it is the gift of god, not by works, so that no one can boast."
- Ephesians 2:8,9

They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Acts 16:31

HOW ARE WE TO BE BAPTIZED?

In the same way Jesus was baptized - by being immersed in water
"As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water."
- Matthew 3:16

Every baptism in the bible was by immersion under water
"...Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. When they came up out of the water..."
- Acts 8:38,39

The word "baptize" from the Greek word "baptizo", means "to dip" or "to immerse" under water
Immersion is the best way to picture a burial and resurrection
As the person being baptized goes under water, he is identifying himself with the death and burial of Christ. As he comes up out of the water, he is identifying himself with the resurrection of Christ.

Christian leaders in history agree:
Martin Luther..."I would have those who are to be baptized to be entirely immersed, as the word imports and the mystery signifies."

John Calvin..."The word "baptize" signifies to immerse. It is certain that immersion was the practice of the ancient church."

John Wesley..."Buried with Him, alluding to baptizing by immersion according to the custom of the first church."

WHO SHOULD BE BAPTIZED?

Every person who has believed in Christ.
"Those who accepted his message were baptized."
- Acts 2:41

"But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."
- Acts 8:12

The one requirement for baptism is belief in Christ! We do not baptize children until they are old enough to understand and believe.
Then Philip began with the Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus. As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water! Why shouldn't I be baptized?...Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him."
- Acts 8:35-38

There is no reason to delay. As soon as a person decides to believe in Christ, he can and should be baptized.

WHEN ARE WE TO BE BAPTIZED?

As soon as you have believed! You shouldn't delay.
"Those who accepted his message were baptized...that day!"
- Acts 2:41
WHAT ABOUT BEING BAPTIZED TWICE?

Our church recommends that you be baptized again if you have not been baptized by immersion since you became a believer. It does not devaluate a prior experience but simply reflects your desire to be baptized in the same way Jesus was baptized.

CAN MY FAMILY BE BAPTIZED TOGETHER?

Yes! If each family member fully understands the meaning of baptism, and each one has personally placed his/her trust in Christ for salvation, we encourage families to be baptized at the same time. It is a wonderful expression of commitment.

WILL I HAVE TO SAY ANYTHING?

We ask each person being baptized to share briefly when and how they came to put their trust in Christ. In short, tell you own story of salvation in such a way that anyone in the congregation could understand how to become a Christian.

"That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

IS BAPTISM A REQUIREMENT FOR MCLEAN BIBLE CHURCH MEMBERSHIP?

Baptism is not a requirement for membership at MBC. However, we strongly encourage every believer to pray about taking this important step of obedience to Jesus Christ.

[BLACK WOLF]

CM Sackett,

How do you explain these verses with what you are teaching?

Mat 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Mark 1:8 "I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Acts 1:5 "For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

We are first born with water within a mother's womb in order to exsist as living breathing human beings. Our spirits are basically considered dead until we are born again of the spirit and that is the baptism that is required for salvation...not the physical one as some here believe.

If that was true a non-believer could fake his way into heaven by just getting physically baptised, if a physical baptism is all it took.

The key is belief. A person, who does not believe, will not be born again even if he is physically baptised.

Ray ;)

[larry]

Black Wolf, I didn't read where CM Sackett said that water baptism saved you,nobody gets saved by water baptism, I think we can all agree on that, but it is something that the Lord himself calls all believers to do. it's a matter of obedience and love. There are only two sacrements or ordinances that the Lord requires of believes, communion and water baptism, neither should be taken lightly.

[BLACK WOLF]

larry,

The original question that hoot asked was... "can you be saved without being baptized?"

And I answered..."I believe baptism in the sense of spiritual baptism is what is needed."

A person DOES NOT HAVE to be physically baptized in order to receive salvation.

I than go on to add that I believe that physical baptism is a nice gesture...in which IT IS, but I NEVER said that is ALL it is...I never said it WASN'T a direct command of our Sovereign Master, Jesus...

If hoot's question was...does God command us to be baptized? I would have to say, yes.

CM's disagreement with Cato, Mike and I implies to me that he may believe that physical water baptism is needed for salvation, so I shared some verses that might cause CM to clear up what he was trying to say.

If we had to obey everyone of God's commandments to remain in His love, no one could, because we are all sinners and we will unfortunately continue to sin from time to time...saved or unsaved...while we live here on earth.

Ray ;)

[larry]

Black Wolf, I guess I just found your post slightly confusing, because you also said that you got baptised," not because you felt you had to". I completely understand our ongoing battle with the old sin nature, but that by no means nullifies Gods commands nor does it qualify as an excuse. it truely is by the grace of God that we are saved!!

God speed

larry

[BLACK WOLF]

larry,

I guess I can see how that can be confusing...but I was saying that in response to hoot's original question to being saved...not commanded.

Ray ;)

[Cato]

John 11:25 "...he who believes in Me shall live, even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die." No mention of belief plus baptism.

Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins" No mention of baptism as necessary

Acts 13: 38,39 "Therefore let it e known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, that through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses" Again, no mention of baptism as requirement of salvation

Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved" No mention of batism

I Corinthians 1:17, the apostle Paul says, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void". Christ did not send Paul to baptize

Galatians 3:6 "Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to Him as righteousness" Abraham was not baptized, or the Scripture does not say so

If baptism was to be a requirement for salvation, do you not think that the Holy Spirit would have directed every writer of the New Testament to make it painstakingly clear as a requirement?

Cato

[CM Sackett]

Respectfully Cato,

How many times did YOUR dad have to say, "Pick up your room"..."Wash your hands"..."don't sass your Mamma" for it to be clear... AND BINDING? Was each of those required to be repeated in every conversation (about anything and everything else) to be clear... and binding?

NOTE: I'm just a fellow bag of dust. It's the King, with the holes in His hands that DID command us to be baptized. THAT IS IRREFUTABLE, UNDENIABLE... and the command is terrifyingly EASY to obey.

NOTE II: Cato, in each of those verses you listed, there is also NO MENTION of

1. Repentance
2. Loving God more than all else
3. Singing
4. Prayer
5. Giving
6. Forgiving others
7. Being faithful to spouses
8. Loving enemies
9. Feeding the hungry
10. Clothing the naked
11. Looking after the sick
12. DAILY taking up our own murder-board (for that's what that cross was for Him, as sure as it is for his children... and He most definitely DOES command us to seek it out, take it up... and follow HIM)

How many times must all these... and the beautiful and horrifying truth of Matthew 25 be repeated/mixed in with other truths before they are undeniably, inescapably clear... and binding?

FINAL THOUGHT...

Did our Master, or did He NOT speak these words... "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to OBEY... EVERYTHING I have COMMANDED you."

?

Are these words not CLEAR... BINDING...? If not, for man's sake... WHERE... WHAT SCRIPTURE makes it clear that this repeated DIRECT COMMAND of the King can be dismissed and countermanded as "not essential"?

BTW, as I have stated repeatedly and openly I am but a fellow bag of dust. They're HIS words, tell HIM why they're not "necessary".

[Cato]

CM,

No dispute here about the command to be baptized. But I fail to see anywhere it is essential for salvation. It is like many commands, the perfect will of God. Thankfully, when we fall short of His perfect will, we are not thrown on the trash heap. Saved by grace, through faith.

Again, Paul sent by Christ not to baptize? How logical would it be that salvation can only be complete with baptism.

And wasn't Abraham saved by faith without baptism?

And again, the thief on the Cross was saved without opportunity to be baptized, wasn't he?

By the way, I sure am glad we are on the same team. And I was baptized at 26 yrs of age by submersion, because for the first time, I was sure Jesus had taken over my life.

I hope this doesn't sound disprespecful in any way.

Cato

[Cato]

Also, the great commission says we are commanded to go, and make disciples. Yes, we are to baptize them. But the directive is to us, not the recipient, isn't it? He was talking to me about my responsibility to disciple and teach the importance of baptism, or so it seems.

I often think we as the American church get caught up into trying to make converts without the follow through of disipleship. The command is to go and make disciples. If we taught more converts how to become complete disciples, they would in turn be able to disciple others, who would disciple others...and on and on.

By the way, I am in no way selling short the need to witness. I just think we often neglect the follow up.

Sorry, off topic there a little.

Cato

[Esquire]

I once finished drywall in Mississippi with an old boy named Que' who one day demanded to know whether I'd been baptized.

"Sure" I said.

"Sprinkled or dunked?" (he wanted to know.)

I asked him if it mattered and he stomped and spluttered his mad for ten minutes!

I let on that I'd been immersed.

He then asked if it was in a stream or a pool. Again, I asked if it mattered.

Oops!

After more stomping and muttering he calmed down enough to ask if I realized that a stream was running water???

I admitted that I did realize that.

Then he asked if I agreed that a pool was stagnant water.

I agreed.

After he'd let that settle in for a full five minutes he suddenly bellowed at me: "How in THE HELL are you gonna get your sins washed away in stagnant w a t e r!!!!"

Old Cue was one of a kind. (Not our Roby, by the way!)

[BLACK WOLF]

Some more food for thought...

Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Notice in the second part of the sentence there is no mention of a person being condemned because they weren't baptized. The people that will be condemned are the people that do not believe.

The Bible mentions 2 types of baptizm. One is by physical emersion in water and the other is through the Holy Spirit.

Both are important...BUT only one of them will cause a new birth within our spirit. A physical emersion in water isn't going to change a person's spirit. The choice to believe, which God gave us, is going to change our spirit through the Holy Spirit.

Ray ;)

[CM Sackett]

"....A physical emersion in water isn't going to change a person's spirit...."

Boy, are you RIGHT, there!!!

But, like....

1. The 10 lepers
2. The man born blind
3. Saul/Paul
4. Naaman
5. countless others

...surrendered OBEDIENCE... does.


Through Him Who makes warriors out of wrecks, and mends our brokenness and makes us fit for service;

Sackett

[Cato]

I really like the fact we can come out here and have these kinds of discussions with Christian friends. It makes us really think, and not just take someone else's word for our beliefs, doesn't it?

[CM Sackett]

May your season be filled with riches and blessings you can see, close at hand (children, health, love).

If not, may your hearts be filled with Grace, Peace... and sweet Wonder... till that Day when all is revealed, including the sons and daughters of the Most High, and the richness of their inheritance.

Merry CHRISTmas boys!


Sackett

[BLACK WOLF]

Right back atch ya CM ;)

Merry Christmas!!!

Ray ;)

[hoot gibson]

well now , what food for thought . i also do not take anybodys word for anything , i have to read it for my self . thats why i came here with this question . now i have plenty to look up . it seems i really struggle at times trying to find the ansers to my questions on my own , even with my help books. sorry black wolf . i guess thats the real question i was asking ,, does God command you to be baptized. but being a lower educated hillbilly .. :) i sometimes have trouble getting my fingers connected to my brain , :sbrug: i really do enjoy reading you guys post and discussions. but you will have to bear with me when reading what i type. thank you for your time .Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." therefor i do belive , one must be baptized to be saved , the Christ said AND be saved . and of course being baptized alone wont do it , you must belive.. well thats enough of my rambling .. thank guys>> hoot

[larry]

hoot, in studying doctrine you need to be very careful not to base your beliefs upon a few scriptures, (or only one for that matter) but on the whole of the bible.there have been many verses given to show that baptisms does not save you. ( Salvation is an inward change, brought on by God Himself.) you would do well to study them in their context. having said that, baptism IS something that all believers should do.

in Christ's love

larry

[larry]

just an added note, Eph.2 8-9 says " For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

you see, if baptism was required for salvation, then it would be Christ plus something that we do (ex. baptism) which would be considered a "work"
But salvation is from Christ alone. If we were to have to "do" something other than believe that Christ bore our sins and paid the penalty for our sins, then the work of Christ would not be sufficient. But praise be to God, that the work of Christ is wholly sufficient to save!! and not only wholly sufficient, but the only means to salvation!!

[BLACK WOLF]

hoot,

No need to applogize. I find it very refreshing and enjoy discussing any of these topics. I hope we are always able to help you or anyone else in their pursuit of truth.

I also agree we MUST be baptized in order to receive salvation...BUT the question should be...which one is needed?

I already explained the 2 types. One is a baptizm of the Holy Spirit based on believeing and the other is a baptizm based on obedience. There is only one where both believeing and being reborn happen nearly at the same time.

Which one causes the change within us?

Ray ;)

[Swanny]

From my perspective it seems the NT apostles and prophets were always jealous for *what kind of faith saves*. The Reformers said something like: Faith alone saves, but not a faith that is alone. Faith and repentance are twin sisters, or two sides of the same coin - faith is looking to Christ for righteousness, repentance is a turning away from self as the grounds of righteousness and a turning away from all that is sinful. One without the other is spurious repentance or faith.

Paul in Romans and Galatians was defending faith as being the sole grounds for justification, against those *legalist* Judaizers who were insisting that the Law of Moses, or works was the sole grounds for either justification or sanctification. Faith alone is the channel whereby God brings righteousness to us who are desperately wicked. We cannot earn or merit His favor.

James was arguing against an *antinomian* view of faith that divorced faith from repentance or works. He was jealous for a faith that worked itself out in obedience. The erroneous view of the day insisted that a faith void of repentance was all that was needed for righteousness, but James said that a 'faith without works is dead' or is a spurious faith, not the kind of living/ongoing faith that the Spirit gives. Even the demons have this kind of faith, they tremble, but aren't going to be saved, because they don't have the kind of faith that leads to repentance and obedience.

Paul basically said the same thing in almost every church letter he wrote: "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery, idolatry and witchcraft; hatred; discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, and envy; drunkeness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, *that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God* " Gal. 5:19-21

This sounds as if Paul is arguing for salvation through works, but rather, he is stating simply that the kind of faith that saves will be efficious and be continously combined with repentance throughout one's earthly life....so that the true believer will always be putting off the works of the flesh and sinful behaviour, and will be putting on Christ's righteous behavior through the fruit of the Spirit (Gal.5:22 on)...not perfectly by any means (I Jn. 1:8), but this will be the defining direction of his/her life (I Jn. 2:4-6). IF this type of faith doesn't characterize or flavor one's life, then he or she doesn't have hope for inheriting the kingdom of God. Very simple, but very sobering for us all.

So that is the filter I view verses that seem to link a work, or activity of man as means of salvation...like "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" in Acts chptr 2. The apostles would not recognize someone as a true believer who merely proffessed to have faith but refused to be baptized. The snapshots we have in Acts reiterate this over and over again....like the case of Lydia in chptr. 16:

"The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us into her home. [an act showing a desire for fellowship] 'If you consider me a believer in the Lord' she said, 'come and stay at my home.' And she persuaded us."

If Lydia refused to be baptized, but offered the Apostles fellowship...they would have questioned her faith and considered it as being suspect. Baptism does not effect, or is not a means of salvation, but is commanded so that the church has grounds to identify what type of faith a person claims to have. Baptism has personal reasons as well... it is a response of a clear conscience towards God (1 Peter 3:21).

American christianity has divorced baptism from true conversion, but the pattern in the Scripture is that it is done ASAP....for the sake of the church and the individual. And yes, I do think Scripture portrays the external act as having much symbolism as to what has taken place internally in the person....I was delighted when I read Cato's remarks about what new hearts desire. :)

[BLACK WOLF]

Nicely expressed, Swanny ;)

Ray ;)

[Swanny]

:) The Bible mentions 2 types of baptizm. One is by physical emersion in water and the other is through the Holy Spirit.

Both are important...BUT only one of them will cause a new birth within our spirit. A physical emersion in water isn't going to change a person's spirit. The choice to believe, which God gave us, is going to change our spirit through the Holy Spirit.

Hi Ray, I hope not to come across as nit picking a knat.... :)

My background exposed me to teaching that stated that if one believed, then God would regenerate you and you would be born again. I've heard Billy Graham state it this way many times....not slamming him either by using him as an example. God has certainly been pleased to use him in many ways.

But I don't see Scriptures teaching that faith is the cause of the newbirth (this would make faith meritorious), but rather just the opposite....faith and repentance are the sure by-products of a changed nature....a nature that has gone from being dead in sin, to being alive in Christ will not fail to reveal itself in faith towards God and repentance towards sin. Faith and repentance are gifts (Eph.2:8,9).

The Spirit of God is the agent who brings life to a dead soul. Natures that are held in bondage and captive to sin and are in rebellion towards God from birth cannot produce faith, or something that pleases God. The nature must first undergo a radical change in order for faith and repentance to be produced. New hearts desire new things! Old corrupt hearts always desire old corrupt things!

Ezekial 37 is a picture of what the Spirit does in converting a soul:

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"
I said, "O Sovereign LORD, you alone know."

4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath [a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.' "

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.' " 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.' "

The propecy of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 conveys similar language:



31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

The writer of Hebrews draws upon the Jeremiah passage and lays out what was 'wrong' with the old covenant: it couldn't produce a changed heart! Heb. 8:7. A changed heart always guarantees a changed life...a life that is characterized by faith and repentance and love towards God!

6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said[b]:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c]

13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Jesus said to Nicodemus in Jn. 3 that the "Spirit gives birth to spirit...You must be born again" (to see the kingdom of heaven). Just as the one being born does not will or inact his natural birthing, so it is with the spiritual birth: the Holy Spirit is the agent or cause of the new birth in Christ...just as the wind blows wherever it wills, so the Spirit gives birth to whomever he pleases. People cannot cause the wind to respond to themselves.

"1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."

3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]"

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Titus 3:3-6:

3At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us *through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit* 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior

I Peter 1:3,23

"In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish or spoil or fade - kept in heaven for you, who through faith [a result of the new birth mentioned above] are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time....For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God"

The Holy Spirit uses the Word of God which is the power of God (Rom. 1:16) to bring change to the heart and mind of the individual which reveals itself in a faith that wills and desires to obey. Why do some people have this type of faith while others have none? Because of new natures desiring new things....all things new!

What do you think? :)

[larry]

I think I am quite often blessed when I read your posts Swanny.
amen and well said

[BLACK WOLF]

Hi Swanny,

You said - "I hope not to come across as nit picking a knat"

Unless I am reading your words wrong...that's a first for me...I've never been described as being a knat ;)

You asked - "What do you think?"

I think what you said was great! I'm not sure what you are specifically asking so I'll just elaborate on some of my thoughts.

You said - "But I don't see Scriptures teaching that faith is the cause of the newbirth (this would make faith meritorious), but rather just the opposite....faith and repentance are the sure by-products of a changed nature"

You are right...it ISN'T faith that causes the newbith...it's the choice TO BELIEVE.

Faith is a product of belief. You must first CHOOSE to BELIEVE before you have FAITH. The MOMENT you CHOOSE to believe is the MOMENT you begin to have FAITH. It happens almost simutaneously, if not at the same time.

Throughout the Bible, God is constantly asking us to make choices and the most important choice we can ever make is to believe Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior.

#1. We are first given a choice by God to believe or not to believe.
#2. We than make a choice.
#3. Depending on that choice we will either have faith in Him or we will not.

We DO NOT have faith before we choose to believe. Again, the MOMENT we CHOOSE to believe is the MOMENT we begin to have FAITH. If we have FAITH in something, we already BELIEVE it. We CAN NOT have FAITH in something we DO NOT BELIEVE.

It is through our continued and growing faith in our BELIEF in Jesus Christ that we continue to grow within our new spirit.

Is that making sense to you?

Ray ;)

[Swanny]

Hi Larry! Soli Deo gloria!

You said - "I hope not to come across as nit picking a knat"

Unless I am reading your words wrong...that's a first for me...I've never been described as being a knat

Hi Ray, That was my way of saying I hope I'm not splitting hairs, er swallowing camels, er straining knats or something! :)

I was just responding to your statement regarding the relationship between faith and the new birth.

"...but that you will be saved - and that by God. For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for him..." Phil. 1:28,29

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world, and the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But God [a beautiful phrase!], who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions - it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him....Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you" Eph. 2:1-6, 5:14

Are you saying that we first choose, we repent (turn from sin) and believe (turn to Christ) and then we are given the new birth (transformed) and are made alive in Christ? If so, then what is the procuring cause of salvation in this scenario?

Or, are you saying the new birth is given to us which allows, frees, enables, motivates us to choose to repent and believe? If so, then what is the procuring cause of salvation?

[BLACK WOLF]

Hi Swanny,

You asked - "Are you saying that we first choose, we repent (turn from sin) and believe (turn to Christ) and then we are given the new birth (transformed) and are made alive in Christ?"

Almost ;) ...Based on OUR part in this...we must first believe, which is a choice. We than begin to transform AND turn away from sin at that very moment.

You asked - "Or, are you saying the new birth is given to us which allows, frees, enables, motivates us to choose to repent and believe?"


Almost ;) ...the new birth IS given to us, but it came with a price...and that price was paid for by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Even though we are still bound to some degree or another by sin while here on earth, this new birth does free us, enable us and motivates us to some extant to repent...BUT...it DOES NOT FORCE us to make the initial choice to believe.

You keep asking - "If so, then what is the procuring cause of salvation?"

That should be obvious, but is ALWAYS a great question ;)....it's our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

The clue is in my first statement "#1. We are first given a choice by God to believe or not to believe."

God is the first one to do anything. He is the One who made ALL these things possible. God gave us the freedom to make choices and He specifically asks us to make a choice.

It's like He is saying...Here it is...here I Am...I've created everything you can see and can not see...I've allowed you to experience life with the freedom to make choices...and you, your ancestors and your predesesors have ALL sinned and therefore you ALL have turned away from me...so now, I am asking you to make yet another choice...I have sent my only begotten Son to pay the price for your sins...will you choose to believe in Him?

Even though God is the procuring cause of ALL life and salvation, He DOES NOT free us up from HAVING to make a CHOICE.

Ray ;)

[Swanny]

Even though God is the procuring cause of ALL life and salvation, He DOES NOT free us up from HAVING to make a CHOICE.

Good evening, Ray - I have no argument with the facet of choice in regards to one's salvation to the extent that you can't believe for me via a proxy, nor can God believe for me....the faith that looks to Christ must spring forth from within our own heart, our own will, our own desire. Yes, we are faced with a choice, we must decide, we must make up our minds to 'come unto Me all ye that are weary and heavy laden', to 'take my yoke upon you and learn of me', to 'eat of the Bread of life', to 'drink of the Living water' as these are all activities that describe what faith is and continuously does.

I also keep running into verses that describe God as bringing life to a soul that is captive to sinful desires....wouldn't it seem fitting with the whole picture of salvation presented in Scripture - that God's grace in giving us new hearts is actually what creates our ability to choose to come, to drink, to eat, to satisfy ourselves in the righteousness He alone has to offer?

David writes " The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures...." How does he 'make me'? By coersion or force? By lack of choice? I don't think so, but rather by instilling in me a nature that desires to obey, a heart that longs to please, eyes that can see Him for who He really is, ears that can hear His sweet beckonings, a disposition that is longing to bask in the spiritual rest only found in Him....all these features are used in making the choice to 'lie down' rather than rebelling in running away.

All these same features (heart, nature, eyes, ears, disposition etc.) before someone undergoing 'Divine Open Heart Surgery' are held in bondage to sin - as the Eph. 2 passage so clearly states. The procuring cause must have something to do with God's transformation of the heart in order to produce genuine faith and repentance. This would be consistant with the Scriptures that label repentance and faith as 'gifts' of grace. If they are gifts, then they don't first originate within our own power (of choice, if you will) to conjure them up while in a state of rebellious mutiny. These gifts are the effects of a new nature in a person recreated in Christ Jesus.

I am not saying that an unsaved person needs to understand the relationship between faith and the new birth in order to be saved. More or less, I am just bouncing off you some facets of salvation that I have been exploring for awhile now.

Thanks for your patience! Have a good night. :)

[BLACK WOLF]

Hi Swanny,

"The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. He MAKES ME lie down in green pastures...."

Our life here is based on time. Timing is very important. There is no escaping it. There is a begining and an end....therefore LOOK closely at the sequence of words within that verse.

"The Lord is my shepard..." At what point in time do we become members of the flock? At what point in time does God shepard us? Are non-believers members of the flock? What is sheparding a non-believer?

We become members of God's flock WHEN we choose to believe based on the choice He has given us. Our new nature wants to be obedient and we have SACRIFICED our old selves to let God work within our lives....therefore He MAKES us lie down in green pastures after we have chosen to become members of His flock.

Satan doesn't control us until we give into his temptation. The moment we give into temptation is the moment we are controlled by that temptation.

I believe God also tempts us...but He tempts us with truth and love...not lies and false promises. The moment we choose to believe is the moment we desire to have God truly work within us.

Ray ;)

[Swanny]

Morning, Ray. Thanks for your thoughts! Blessings to you in our Christ today!

PS....woke up in the middle of the night and realized 'knat' is correctly spelled 'gnat'. Odd things happen late at night during my sleep. :)

[hoot gibson]

mark:16 verse 16 and it sais . he that beliveth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that beliveth not , shall be damned. this is what my kjv sais . (and is baptized, ) i didnt ask if baptizem saved you , my question was do you also have to be baptizedby water? this telles me i have to be baptized to be saved , but is the Lord talking of water or spiritual? hoot

[BLACK WOLF]

hoot,

Based on my understanding...a person needs to be baptized by the Holy Spirit in order to receive salvation.

Ray ;)

[Swanny]

i didnt ask if baptizem saved you , my question was do you also have to be baptizedby water? this telles me i have to be baptized to be saved , but is the Lord talking of water or spiritual? hoot

Hi Hoot,

Here's your first post that started a good conversation:

my question to you is , everywhere i read in my bible it tells me that if i asked forgiveness, it will be granted ,eternal life with christ , what a great feeling . but when you go to mark:16 verse 16 and it sais . he that beliveth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that beliveth not , shall be damned. can you be saved without being baptized?? looking forward to reading your responces..

Maybe you were inquiring about both?

Generally, when you find both belief and baptism in the same verse it most always is a reference to faith unto justification (belief) and faith that has obedient feet (baptism via water). The former cannot take place without the new birth - which is in essense spiritual baptism via the Spirit...bringing new life to a dead soul.

SO the short answer is what an unrighteous sinner (like me) needs in order to avoid God's just and holy wrath towards sin - is justification alone - a legal declaration from God the Father that one is righteous (though still a sinner intrinsically) based on the substitutionary atonement, or death of Christ, the spotless Lamb of God. My sin and the punishment for it is transferred to Christ (he makes payment for sin in that he suffers the wrath of God), while his perfect righteousness is legally given to me.

Water baptism plays no part in justication.

", my question was do you also have to be baptizedby water?"

Maybe you are also asking if water has to be the medium in which one is baptized? (I[m probably reading into this too much now :) ).

a pool full of milk or tomatoe juice would most likely suffice in a pinch if H2O isn't available. :)

[hoot gibson]

thanks guys . i have enjoyed your writings,( teachings), preaching, very much , i gues you all have given me alot of food for thought .. thanks ,, hoot