Letters from a skeptic

[Phil]

This thread may take a while, so you might want to get a cup of coffee or tea before we begin or adjust your chair to a more comfortable position,... are you back .. OK...good..
Now..I'm not a believer in the Christian Faith or any other religous faith, but I do enjoy coming to the TradTalk chapel because the topics discussed here are to me, discussed in an open, intelligent and respectfull manner and deal with some of the fundemental issues that make us the people we are.
A couple of months ago I posted a thread that began a discussion on how some of the Biblical texts seem to contradict each other. As a result of that discussion our friend Cato (happy birthday by the way Mitch) sent me and invited me to read a fascinating book entitled "Letters from a Skeptic". The book is a dialogue between a father and son. The son is a theologian and the father is skeptical of his son's beliefs. The book is a series of letters from father to son over a three year period where the father lays out the reasons for his skepticism and the son very eloquently responds with his theological explanation of the fathers questions. The book is a touching insight into the love between a father and a son and although some of the subjects raised by the father prove difficult to discuss, the replies from the son are equally as challenging to the father, but, there is no aspect of each others beliefs they are prepared to avoid.
So I began thinking .... as the TradTalk Chapel is a simular format (a dialogue between friends as a series of letters ) as the book, could we adopt a simular conversational format here?
"Letters from a Skeptic" hasn't changed my views or beliefs, but it has enabled me to understand, how those that share the Christian faith understand and interprit the very difficult and complicated world which we all share.

So to get the ball rolling I'd like to begin, as the book begins, with the fathers first question

" Why has God allowed so much suffering in his name, to innocent people throughout the history of the world."

B.T.W. Cato, thank you for your generosity and a great book :thankyou:

[Esquire]

Phil,

Good question, good idea for a conversation.

Are you asking about innocent people's suffering in general or just the suffering that is inflicted in the name of God? Or are you asking about both?

Also, just to make things as clear as possible, are you using the word innocent as in "innocent bystanders?" Or are you defining the word innocent in some other way? In other words, who are the innocent, broadly speaking?

Mike

[Phil]

Hi Mike ...
the question appears in the book as those people that have suffered at the hands of others in the name of God The author of the letter (the father) sites the Crusades and the Spanish inquision as examples. So i guess it's anyone who has suffered as a result of persicution in the name of religion.

[BLACK WOLF]

Hi Phil,

Innocent can be a hard word to throw around and discuss within this context but we will give it a shot ;)

Biblically, no one is innocent when it comes to sin and everyone will be held accountable.

Is it wrong to persecute someone if they are wrong and causing others to make the same mistake?

There was a time Biblically that God required His people to do so.

Gotta go but I'll write more latter.

Ray ;)

[BLACK WOLF]

IMO, persecution in the name of religion would be wrong...BUT persecution in the name of truth and commanded by God would not be.

There were a few things in the Old Testament that were commanded by God to protect us that no longer really apply because of the blood Jesus latter shed for us.

John 8:7 "But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

God can command the persecution of people because He knows their hearts and the truth or deceit that lies within them.

Unfortunately, most of the persecution that goes on today and in the past had other motives such as wealth and power, which are not the true motives that God utilized persecution for.

Ray ;)

[Ray Cover]

Phil,

Those why would God........................... questions can only be answered by speculation on our part based on our knowledge of God's nature that He has revealed about himself in Scripture. Sort of the same kind of thing that criminal profilers do for criminals based on their knowledge of human nature.

That makes this type of endeavor a very difficult one. At least it makes it very difficult to get a complete and pointed answer because to do so means we would have to speak for God in a way or fully know the mind of God (which is not possible since we are finite and his mind is not). ................this could get long too.................... :)

There have been times in which God has intervened directly/personally in the affairs of humans (calling Abram out of Ur, instructing Noah to build an ark, visiting with Abraham before the destruction of Sodom, etc. BUt this is not the norm.

Generally God has left the task of church government, spreading His word and the gospel, etc. to we humans as His ambasadors. Why has He done it this way? I do not know for sure but I suspect its for a very similar reason that we give our children resposibilities as they grow. We do that for our kids benefit so they can grow into mature adults and not spoiled brats.

Good parents do not guarentee good kids. Like a lot of good parents with rotten kids God has some too. Christians exist (and always have) who greatly misunderstand what God's will for them is. Others think they know better than God and yet others are total counterfits and are Christain in name only and have no viable relationship with God and no concern for His will for them.

This creates problems for the Church, especially when these folks get themselves into positions of power within the church........or when they break off and create their own little radical suedo-christian group that does ungodly things like blow up abortion clinics to kill doctors.

This is sin against God no doubt about it. Why doesn't God smash these little misguided "Christians" like a bug to stop them? Probably for the same reason that I don't use a shotgun full of buckshot to discipline mine when they are disobedient or out of line. Does God discipline these folks? Probably so, but we humans are hard headed and stuborn enough to turn around after a good spanking and say, "That didn't hurt" and go about OUR business.

I think another part of the equation has to do with our human nature and the growth of the Church. Historically, the fastest growth of the church has been during times of persecution. When things are rolling along just fine we tend to forget God is there making things go well for us. When that happens He tends to lift his hand for a while and let Satan and our fleshly desires beat on us till we once again recognize within our own hearts that we do need Him. I have recently gone through that myself. It was not enjoyable but I see where it was neccesary from God's perspective. One of the greatest times of spiritual growth in my life came after loosing everything I had except my wife to a flood.

Tragedy tends to cause one of two things to happen. It either makes people draw close to God or ball up their fist in pride and anger and curse Him.

It is a shame that such tragedy has on occasions come from withing the church itself. The church body is made up of people. People are imperfect and we often represent Christ imperfectly because of that.

Ray

[Cato]

Great idea Phil. Reading your posts out here, and on the other forums, makes me wish we could sit down with that cup of coffee in person. But for now this site will have to do.

I'm glad you enjoyed the book. I will try to stay in touch with the discussions. It should be lively, and interesting. To me, these types of discussions are what make this forum enjoyable.

Cato