Escape Brothers..........!

[Bill McNeal]

More writing by Brother Chip..........

Escape From Churchianity
by Chip Brogden

It is important that we make a clear distinction between the True Church (the Ecclesia) and the Institutional Church, Organized Religion, or religion in general. The easiest way to begin is to discuss one critical thing that Organized Religion cannot do.

Organized Religion cannot impart Life.

"This is our testimony, that God has given us Eternal Life, and this Life is in His Son: He that has the Son has Life, and He that has not the Son of God has not Life (I John 5:11,12)."

Contrary to popular belief, the Lord Jesus Christ does not live within the matrix of Organized Religion. The Ecclesia, like our Lord, is Wholly Other. I can prove it to you beyond the shadow of a doubt. Can you join a "church" ? Yes, if you meet their requirements for membership. Can you join the Ecclesia? No. You have to be born into it. Or, to be more correct, you have to be born-again into it. It is not a question of joining or not joining, but a question of having Life versus not having Life. "He that has the Son has Life; He that has not the Son has not Life."

Some erroneously believe Jesus founded a movement, or formed a new religion. No, the world already had movements and religions, and would continue to have them. He had no intention of starting a new one. What did He bring us? What did He contribute to the world? He committed Himself to us as our Life.

Muhammad, Buddha, Confucius, or Socrates can bring us good teaching, moral excellence, and religious philosophy. For this they may be commended as rendering help and aid to humanity. But Jesus Christ is different: He brings us Himself as our Life. It is not that He merely transmits some teachings to us, depositing some virtue into the human race, before being taken up into heaven. It is well beyond Him simply being an example for us to follow, the standard by which our morals are measured as we frantically whisper, "What would Jesus do?". No, He Himself came to be our Life. He is Savior, and Salvation. He is Redeemer, and Redemption. He is Healer, and Healing. He is the Giver of Life, and He is Life.

In Him is Life because He is Life. All who are in Him possess Life, and Life possesses them. The Life is in the Son. The Son is in me, and I am in Him. We share in a common Life. "He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him (I Corinthians 6:7)."

Everyone together who possess Life are called the Ecclesia, the Church, the Body of Christ. The individual members of the Ecclesia are called Christians. They are the in-Christed ones. They abide in Him, and He abides in them.

You ask is not a Christian one who believes thus and so, or behaves thus and so. We answer that they may very well believe or behave thus and so, but the belief or the behavior, while it may assist us in identifying them, is not what makes them a Christian. It is the Life. Certainly, Christians have a core system of beliefs and practices. But the characteristic of a Christian is Life. It is not even "the Lord of my life", implying something apart from Him that I still have control over; it is "the Lord AS my Life."

An intellectual Christianity is what Organized Religion brings. It cannot impart Life. What do I mean by an intellectual Christianity? It is the ABC Gospel. Perhaps you have heard it. Salvation is obtained in three easy steps: "A" stands for "admit you are a sinner"; "B" stands for "believe on the Lord Jesus to save you"; and "C" stands for "confess Jesus as your personal Savior." What is wrong with that? Simply this: there is no Life there. "ABC" will not save us. With "ABC" there is no encounter with Jesus, Who alone is Life. There is only an intellectual acceptance and affirmation of what is presented as "Three Easy Steps". I believe this, I say that, and that makes me a Christian, right? No, it just makes you religious. There are many people who "get religion", but they don't get Jesus.

Organized Religion has caused Christianity to morph into Churchianity, a gospel which is easy to believe in but progressively more difficult to live up to.

Organized Religion can bring doctrine, teaching, and belief. Some of it may be morally excellent and good. Some of it may even sound Biblical, like "Three Easy Steps". Nevertheless, Organized Religion cannot impart Life. Why? Because it has no Life to give. Jesus Christ is the Life. And Jesus does not live within the matrix of Organized Religion. He gives HIMSELF. How can any man, organization, or movement claim to give away another man, much less impart the very Life of Jesus Christ? Only Jesus can give Himself as our Life.

You see, then, that the most anyone can do is point people to Jesus as the sole Source of Life. They may contact Life through us, but we cannot give them Life. To those bound by Organized Religion, Jesus cries "You search the Scriptures, because you think in them you have Life. You are content to read about Me, but you will not come to Me that you may have Life (John 5:39,40, paraphrased)." Come to Me! Not, "Memorize these Three Easy Steps and attend the Church of your choice this Sunday." Come to Me! He is Life.

The Church, the Lord's Ecclesia, is the synthesis of individuals who have the Revelation of Jesus and have come to Him to receive Him as their Life. Here is where the confusion begins. We glibly use the term "church" to describe things which are not The Lord's Ecclesia. A building devoted to religious meetings is called "the church". Attending a religious meeting is called "going to church." Hearing a good message or good music during the religious meeting is called "having church" (a popular tune says "crank up the music, let's have church!"). Becoming a member of the non-profit organization which owns the building devoted to religious meetings is called "joining the church". Taking responsibility as the founder or being voted in as the director of the non-profit organization which owns the building devoted to religious meetings is called "pastoring the church". Making additions to the building devoted to religious meetings or to the membership list of the non-profit organization which owns the building is called "church growth".

Why are we being so facetious and wordy? Why do we choose our phraseology carefully? For the sake of convenience, or just plain laziness, people have grown accustomed to saying "church" instead of "a non-profit organization that owns a building devoted to religious meetings." Whatever nomenclature you decide upon, we are drawing the line and making a distinction between "The Church" and "church". We hope to impress upon you the difference between what people customarily call "church" and what the Lord considers to be "The Church". As demonstrated above, much of what we call "church" is simply Organized Religion. It is not the Lord's Ecclesia.

We simply see things the way we have been trained to see them; we do not see things as God sees them. It is very easy to quantify and describe things in terms of Organized Religion because it is earthy, worldly, natural. Ask someone on the street. What is church? Why, it is that building there with a steeple on top. What is a pastor? The fellow who does the preaching. What is a Christian? The folks who read their Bible a lot and pray a lot and go to church a lot - you know, doing good works. You see how easy it is to define. It is tangible, concrete. We can get our hands on that.

But the reality is that everything which makes up the Ecclesia is spiritual, and thus, it is invisible to the naked eye. It is non-corporeal. It cannot be measured by dollars and statistics. Now ask the same questions of someone who knows better. What is church? The Church, the Ecclesia, is the synthesis of individuals who have the Revelation of Jesus and have come to Him to receive Him as their Life. Pray tell, where do I find that? What do I look for? You can't do it, it's like trying to find the wind at 101 North Main Street. It is beyond geographical description; it is everywhere and nowhere. What is a pastor? Someone called to feed the Lord's sheep as an under shepherd of the Chief Shepherd. Huh? You mean preaching? No, not necessarily. You mean a doctor of theology? No, not really. Oh never mind: what is a Christian? Oh that's easy, someone who is in Christ. What do you mean "in Christ"? Don't you mean "believes in Christ?" No, I mean IS in Christ, in union, one with Him. So what does THAT look like? How many chapters of the Bible do they read per day? How long do they pray? How often do they attend church? It defies explanation because the truth is it has nothing to do with the external, only the internal. Like the wind: you can see the effects of it but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes; so are they which are born of the Spirit (John 3). This invisible Life is the characteristic of the Ecclesia. When you can capture the wind in a bag then you can stuff Christians into a building and call it "church". " Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21)."

continued...........

[George Tsoukalas]

Bill, the church is not the building. It's the people who are there to worship with the fellowship of believers. I coulda told you that and saved you some time. :) Are there people in church who are there for the social hour (actually 2 hours in my case). Yes, I'm sure of that but that's not the reason I'm there. I'm there to worship Him with my fellow believers. There are some of us in "organized" religion you know. BTW I think some religions need to get a bit more organized. Jawge

[WildmanSC]

"It is important that we make a clear distinction between the True Church (the Ecclesia) and the Institutional Church, Organized Religion, or religion in general. The easiest way to begin is to discuss one critical thing that Organized Religion cannot do.

Organized Religion cannot impart Life.

"This is our testimony, that God has given us Eternal Life, and this Life is in His Son: He that has the Son has Life, and He that has not the Son of God has not Life (I John 5:11,12)."

Contrary to popular belief, the Lord Jesus Christ does not live within the matrix of Organized Religion. The Ecclesia, like our Lord, is Wholly Other. I can prove it to you beyond the shadow of a doubt. Can you join a "church" ? Yes, if you meet their requirements for membership. Can you join the Ecclesia? No. You have to be born into it. Or, to be more correct, you have to be born-again into it. It is not a question of joining or not joining, but a question of having Life versus not having Life. "He that has the Son has Life; He that has not the Son has not Life.""

There are people in "orgainized churches" that are also members of the Family of God. That is not to say that all members of "organized churches" are in the Family of God. I don't believe it and I don't propose it to be the case.

Some "organized churches" only require that you be baptized, or make a "statement of faith" to become a member. Others require that you give a biblically based testimony as to how and when you was saved. If you cannot do so, you cannot become a member until you are saved. Baptism will not save you. Church membership will not save you. Being religious will not save you. Having a religious "experience" will not save you.

We can look at some examples from the Bible to see what is necessary to be saved.

The Roman Jailer

Acts 16:26-34

The key verses are Acts 16:31-33

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

1. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house -Vs 31

2. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

3. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

They told him specifically what he and his family needed to do to be saved "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ...", then they "...spake unto him the word of the Lord and to all that were in his house", "And he took then the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway."

Lydia

Acts 16:13-15

What did Paul preach unto the women? The Bible doesn't specifically say, but in light of what he said to the Roman Jailer and in light of what he said in I Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified, I think it is safe to say he preached unto them Christ Jesus and Him crucified and their need to believe in Him to be saved. and vs 14 of Acts 16 tells us "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thy-ati'ra, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." In other words, she did what she needed to do to get saved, she believed in Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

People in Samaria (Philip preaching)

Acts 8:5-12

The key verse is verse 12, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."

The Ethiopian Eunuch

Acts 8:26-38
The keys verses are:

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same Scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Philip preached unto him Jesus, the eunuch asked "what doth hinder me to me baptized:", And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

In all of these examples, salvation was by believing in Jesus Christ. An "organized church" cannot save a person, but an organized church can preach Jesus Christ just as Paul and Philip did, and Christ promises in the Bible "Where two or more gather together in my name, there I am also." Christ is there in the form of the Holy Spirit since His ascension to Heaven. It is the Holy Spirit that "opened Lydia's heart" or brought conviction to her heart when the gospel was preached to her. The same Holy Spirit is faithful in bringing conviction to the hearts of those in attendance who are unbelievers when the Holy Bible is faithfully preached from pulpits in churches today.

It doesn't even have to be in a church. I preach 2 or 3 times a month in nursing homes. The Holy Spirit has touched the hearts of several dozen people in attendance over the years and they have under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit prayed, professing their belief in the ressurected Son of God, repented of their sins, acknowledged the mercy and grace of the Heavenly Father, the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and asked Christ Jesus to come into their heart as personal Saviour.

Bill Lamb

[Bill McNeal]

Bill Lamb, you said..........""""""""""The Roman Jailer

Acts 16:26-34

The key verses are Acts 16:31-33

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

1. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house -Vs 31

2. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

3. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

They told him specifically what he and his family needed to do to be saved "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ...", then they "...spake unto him the word of the Lord and to all that were in his house", "And he took then the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.""""""""""


Like so many who preach that certain acts of men bring about salvation, you fail to realize, and neglect the Scriptures that clearly tell us, our salvation, the act of God granting us Mercy is not of men, or their desires, but rather of Gods Will.........

"""And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. """"

God also says..........

"""For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. """

God also says.......

"""just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. """

God also says.........

"""But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, """

These are foundational Scriptures, that in no way present a premise of man being able to reject, or accept Salvation, which God has stated is based on His calling/choice/will/mercy/predestination/and acceptence.

God accepts us, and our sin. we are incapable of Loving Him, without Him first loving us. The flaw of the freewill doctrine is, that confuses the natural acts that Gods children follow, belief, repentence, baptism, and so forth with the actual ACTS that Create their Salvation. Does anyone believe that man has the power to reject his chosing???. Does anyone believe that God can say that those chosen to be "Holy, and Blameless", in the IMAGE of Christ, can reject such a calling???????. Of course not!

Belief, and baptism are simply the acts that all who are Elected complete, in GODS program of Salvation. In the Conversion of Lydia, we read that it was the Lord who opened Lydias heart to respond to Pauls message. Our salvation is not dependant upon a prayer, or following a verse of Scripture, for Christians by the droves were being brought into Christ before the Bible was ever complete. Simply put, Salvation is from the Lord.


Shalom!

[BLACK WOLF]

"Does anyone believe that man has the power to reject his chosing???." "Does anyone believe that God can say that those chosen to be "Holy, and Blameless", in the IMAGE of Christ, can reject such a calling???????.

Absolutely not...but for those that are seeking...How, when and why does God choose the way He does...what is it that He bases His decisions on?

You are lost until you can first begin to understand the why, even if it is at the fundamental level.

Here's a hint...it begins with L and it doesn't involve controlling or forcing.

Agape,

Ray

[WildmanSC]

Bill McNeal,

As per normal, you addressed two of the examples I gave and totally ignored the Ethiopian eunuch, and it could be no more clear what Philip told him he had to believe to be saved, and you ignored the people of Somaria as well. They believed in Christ and were baptized and were saved. If you can read the scriptures and not see that plain truth, then the "Power of the Spirit" you claim to be guiding you is not of the Holy Spirit.

Let's see what else the Bible has to say about salvation.

Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

2 Thess 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

Please note: In John 8:24 He said "ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins", He didn't say "ye shall die in your sins; for if ye are not of the elect, ye shall die in your sins"! shall

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The scriptures speak for themselves. It is not man's formula that says confess, repent and believe and you shall be saved. It is God's plan of salvation right out of His Holy Word. To deny otherwise is to call God a liar.

Bill Lamb

[Bill McNeal]

Again Bill, you still lack the Wisdom to understand the overall Word of God, which proclaims Him Sovereign, which proclaims that His Will, Will be done. What you do not understand is that It was an Angel of the Lord who sent Phillip down the road to Gaza to the Ethiopian.

You see, while you may attempt to sway the Elect into believing that that it is their Desire that Saved Him, you will not succeed because God lives in their hearts, and they hear Him, and his ministers . You may convince the world that man's "freewill" is greater than Gods,and can alter His Election, but you will never decieve the Elect, that Salvation is based upon mans desire.

As I have told you. I preach not to try and change your mind. That has never been my charge. My charge is to profess Jesus Christ as Blazing Center of Everything, and to point to Sovereign Will, and Purpose, that He proclaims was formed prior to Creation. Sadly , pride will blind certain people and never allow them the comfort of resting in the cleft of a Loving, and Powerful Father.

Bill it is my prayer that one day God allows you to see this, and that you no longer search the Scriptures in a desperate attempt to prove that you do the chosing, and to try and glorify men. It is my prayer that God will lead you to search His Word to Glorify Him, His Will, and His Purpose, and treat Him as the Sovereign Title He is worthy to bear.

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

Again Bill, you still lack the Wisdom to understand the overall Word of God, which proclaims Him Sovereign, which proclaims that His Will, Will be done. What you do not understand is that It was an Angel of the Lord who sent Phillip down the road to Gaza to the Ethiopian.

You see, while you may attempt to sway the Elect into believing that that it is their Desire that Saved Him, you will not succeed because God lives in their hearts, and they hear Him, and his ministers . You may convince the world that man's "freewill" is greater than Gods,and can alter His Election, but you will never decieve the Elect, that Salvation is based upon mans desire.

As I have told you. I preach not to try and change your mind. That has never been my charge. My charge is to profess Jesus Christ as Blazing Center of Everything, and to point to Sovereign Will, and Purpose, that He proclaims was formed prior to Creation. Sadly , pride will blind certain people and never allow them the comfort of resting in the cleft of a Loving, and Powerful Father.

Bill it is my prayer that one day God allows you to see this, and that you no longer search the Scriptures in a desperate attempt to prove that you do the chosing, and to try and glorify men. It is my prayer that God will lead you to search His Word to Glorify Him, His Will, and His Purpose, and treat Him as the Sovereign Title He is worthy to bear.

Shalom!

Bill McNeal,

Sorry my friend, it is you that is lacking in wisdom and an understanding of the whole Bible. God's perfect, sovereign will is expressed in:

2 Pet 3:9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God's sovereign, perfect will is for all to come to repentance and be saved.

Bill you have avoided answering my questions. So, I will repeat them again.

1. Bill McClean, how and when was you saved?

2. Bill McClean, do you know beyond a shadow of doubt that if you died right now you would go to Heaven.

3. Bill McClean, what is the biblical basis for your answers to questions 1 & 2?

Bill,

You are so insistent upon your doctrine of the Elect, that you fail to see what the Bible says about it in total. The key verses on election/predestination are:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The basis for the predestination/election is God's foreknowledge. And what is His foreknowledge? It is His attribute of Omniscience permitting Him to know before the foundation of time who would, and who would not, believe in Jesus Christ.

If you will read and prayerfully consider the verses I listed in my previous post in the illuminating light of God's foreknowledge you will see that His perfect, sovereign will is brought about in the lives of believers by the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. That is not to say that the gospel is not preached to every man and the Holy Spirit does not work on their heart. Far from it.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

I Pet 1:17] And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Bill Lamb

[Papabull]

I've found that more often than not the most significant lack of understanding is the inability to understand another's perspectives. It's tough, if not impossible, since perspective is, by definition, a view from one's own position.

My brother and I grew up in the same household and lived by the same rules at the same time and still we did not both have the same relationship or understanding with our father.

As His children, created in His image, it's not surprising that our relationships with our Father are not precisely the same as that of all our brother in Christ.

:jesus:

[WildmanSC]

I've found that more often than not the most significant lack of understanding is the inability to understand another's perspectives. It's tough, if not impossible, since perspective is, by definition, a view from one's own position.

My brother and I grew up in the same household and lived by the same rules at the same time and still we did not both have the same relationship or understanding with our father.

As His children, created in His image, it's not surprising that our relationships with our Father are not precisely the same as that of all our brother in Christ.

:jesus:

PB,

There is a very real difference between the relationships we have in our homes with our Fathers, and the relationship our Heavenly Father has with us. He is not double minded in the matter of salvation. He does not have one method for one group of people and another for yet another group of people. His Word, the Holy Bible, is crystal clear on that issue. The clouding of minds with an improper understanding of election introduces something the Heavenly Father did not intend. Our relationship with Him is solely dependent upon our experiental relationship with Jesus Christ. He, the Heavenly Father, draws us to the Son through the foolishness of the preaching of the gospel and the ministering of the Word to our hearts by the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. That convicting power draws us to Christ and the realization that we are hellbound sinners. At that point we can choose to believe, or we can choose to remain in unbelief and turn our backs on the Saviour who died upon the cross in behalf of all of humanity for their sins , but His blood was shed in place of only those who believe. Not a single drop of that blood will touch the sin stained carcass of an unbeliever, becauses he chose to not believe in the risen Saviour and Son of God, Jesus Christ.

Bill you have avoided answering my questions. So, I will repeat them again.

1. Bill McClean, how and when was you saved?

2. Bill McClean, do you know beyond a shadow of doubt that if you died right now you would go to Heaven.

3. Bill McClean, what is the biblical basis for your answers to questions 1 & 2?

Bill Lamb

[BLACK WOLF]

Papa Bull,

I think that was a great comparison!

Ray

[Bill McNeal]

Ray, you asked this question..............

"""Absolutely not...but for those that are seeking...How, when and why does God choose the way He does...what is it that He bases His decisions on?"""

Ray, may I suggest reading the ninth chapter of Romans to answer your question........Here are a few verses........

"""What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."""

The key words are "not of him who wills" Ray. Now, if you believe that men have "freewill", could you defend this against Gods Word saying that he doesn't?

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

"""What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."""

What we must remember is that Moses was under the dispensation of the Law. We are now under the dispensation of Grace and the Church. It is totally of God's Grace that a person is saved. For it is only by His Grace that He sent His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to die in our stead for OUR sins. However, the Bible still very clearly says:

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Clearly it is not God's will, He does not make the choice for any to perish, it is His perfect will for all to come to repentance (and be saved). However, in His permissive will, many will ignore His amazing grace and love and will refuse to come to repentance.

Bill Lamb

[larry]

Bill, could you explain to me what you mean when you say "permissive will" ? that is a term that I'm not familiar with.

thanks, larry

[BLACK WOLF]

Bill McNeal,

How many times are you going to go over and over this until you realize you aren't going to change my belief?

How many times are you going to repeat yourself by telling us to re-read certain verses you have already shared and we have already read?

Here's my understanding on this verse for those that are seeking. I'm not asking for a response from you, Bill McNeal, because I already know where you stand.

"""What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."""

No one can force God to choose one way or the other by their own will. Just because someone wants to enter into heaven, doesn't mean they can. God has created the circumstances that decide weither or not someone enters into heaven and no one can change that.

You asked - "Now, if you believe that men have "freewill", could you defend this against Gods Word saying that he doesn't?"

NO WHERE does it say in the Bible that men are not free to make choices. The word "freewill" is used within the Bible some 20 times. If it didn't exsist it wouldn't be in there.

"Freewill" means that our will has the freedom to make choices on it's own without anything else forcing or controling it, but that doesn't mean those choices can't be INFLUENCED by outside forces.

God's word says He created the heavens, the earth and the first man and woman. In doing so He also created the boundries and limitations within His creation. God forknew the outcome of His creation and through His love, grace and mercy did He decide to give us each a second chance to enter into an eternal relationship with Him.

Deuteronomy 30:19 "This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live"

Romans 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

1 Timothy 1:15-17 "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners–of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen."

Agape,

Ray ;)

[WildmanSC]

Bill, could you explain to me what you mean when you say "permissive will" ? that is a term that I'm not familiar with.

thanks, larry

Larry,

God's permissive will means that He does not force His perfect will upon man. The prime example of the operation of His permissive will is the Garden of Eden. He commanded Adam and Eve to not eat of the tree with the forbidden fruit. His perfect will was for them to NOT eat of that fruit. But, in His permissive will He permitted them to choose to eat of that fruit. And by so doing, they introduced sin unto man.

If we say it was His perfect will for them to eat of the forbidden fruit, then we are saying God forced Adam and Eve to sin. God abhors sin and would not force man to do so. There have been a few examples in the Bible though where God has hardened the hearts of men so His perfect will could be accomplished. For example, he hardened the hearts of two men, Judas and Pilate, so Christ Jesus would be turned over to the soldiers and Pilate would turn him over to be crucified in order to fulfill God's plan and perfect will.

Bill

[BLACK WOLF]

I would like to add to what WildmanSC just shared about "hardening".

"Hardening" a man's heart is still not controling, but a cause and effect.

God performed miracles through Moses, which caused....not forced Pharroh to harden his heart even more towards God.

God knew Pharroh's heart and the choices he would make.

It to me is like God saying...Oh yea...I know you so well that the miracles I will perform for you will still not cause you to believe. I will perform these miracles for you to not force you to not believe, but to draw those that will believe into believing and to prove my omnipotenence.

Life is about relationships and it takes 2 to inneract with each other to have a relationship. God does something FIRST and than we respond and than He holds us all accountable for those choices.

God creates life and than we live.

God gives us choices and than we choose.

Therfore God will have mercy on whomever He will have mercy on, and He will have compassion on whomever He will have compassion on."

The "whomever" are sinners, who are all diserving of death, who are spared by choosing to believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord,. which was a choice FIRST given by God.

Agape,

Ray ;)

[Bill McNeal]

Ray you said........

"""Bill McNeal,

How many times are you going to go over and over this until you realize you aren't going to change my belief?"""

Ray, I am not trying to change your mind, really I am not. I am just commenting on your posts, with the hope that others may benefit.

You also said........

"""How many times are you going to repeat yourself by telling us to re-read certain verses you have already shared and we have already read?"""

Ray, there are other members who may benefit from reading, and perhaps re-reading Scripture. I do it quite often, and find it to be very helpful.

"""Here's my understanding on this verse for those that are seeking. I'm not asking for a response from you, Bill McNeal, because I already know where you stand."""

Well Ray, asking that certain members avoid commenting on the forum posts seems a little unfair, and kinda gives the impression of that Christians are incapable of meeting the challenge of opposing views.

You also said.............



"""No one can force God to choose one way or the other by their own will. Just because someone wants to enter into heaven, doesn't mean they can. God has created the circumstances that decide weither or not someone enters into heaven and no one can change that."""


Ray, I could not agree more. Man has never had "freewill" over his salvation. The Chosen of God are able to decide whether to grow in Christ, to give from their hearts, and so forth, but it is God who Chooses who will recieve Salvation, and that my friend was done before the planet existed.

Ray, you also said...........

"""NO WHERE does it say in the Bible that men are not free to make choices. The word "freewill" is used within the Bible some 20 times. If it didn't exsist it wouldn't be in there."""

You are correct Ray. I have a choice over whether I will seek to follow the teachings of my Lord, that He placed on my heart. I have a choice over how I will give of my time, effort, and money to the saints, and the poor, BUT, I NEVER had a choice in my Salvation, because God says that that Choice was made by Him before the planet was Created, so it's kinda hard for me to have "chosen" to be saved, before I was born. Now, has for the word "freewill".......Yes Ray, you are correct again........the word "freewill" is mentioned numerous times in the OT, but it is always mentioned has follows........"Freewill Offering".........

You see Ray, a Biblical "freewill offering" or "tithe", or "love gift", is something we can choose to do, as the House of Israel did with regards to their offerings, and Levitical gifts. However, you will never see the phrase "freewill" mentioned in the NT, let alone in regards to salvation. "Freewill" advocates simply coined the phrase out of context, and now use it to suggest that they pocess the ability to will themselves into salvation.

Ray, you also said........

"""""Freewill" means that our will has the freedom to make choices on it's own without anything else forcing or controling it, but that doesn't mean those choices can't be INFLUENCED by outside forces.""""

Ray, earlier you said.........""""""No one can force God to choose one way or the other by their own will.""". Are you now saying that men can, by their "freewill" achieve salvation???

You also said..........

"""God's word says He created the heavens, the earth and the first man and woman. In doing so He also created the boundries and limitations within His creation. God forknew the outcome of His creation and through His love, grace and mercy did He decide to give us each a second chance to enter into an eternal relationship with Him."""

I agree with most of that Ray, but does God ever Create people for the intent purpose of destroying them???

Ray, you mention these Scriptures........

"""Deuteronomy 30:19 "This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" """

Ray, Ray, Ray... :) ........Brother; you are pointing to the commands given to the Chosen People of Israel to keep the commands written in the Book of the Law. It is the Moab Covenant, given prior to the Crossing of Jordan. Ray, it is Biblical fact that God tells us in His Word that Israel was incapable of keeping this Covenant, or any other law based Covenant. That is why several verses later God predicts the rebellion of Israel. Ray, we need to view OT Scripture through NT glasses. Deut 30:19 is NOT evidence that men can choice to saved, but rather the exact opposite.

If salvation was capable according to that verse you present, if man could "choose" life, then the entire NT of Jesus Christ is not needed, because Salvation could have ended by obeying Moses in Deut 30:19.

You presented more Scripture.......

"""Romans 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." """

Yes Ray, ALL the Chosen of Jesus Christ do exactly what Romans 10:9 declares, but to suggest that men first, by their own will, choose freely to do as this Scripture says, stands opposed to the Scripture that says that God Chooses His Church based on His Mercy. Romans 10:9 is perfect Scripture Ray. Howver it becomes imperfect when men attempt to apply it to bolster their own doctrine. When we take Scripture as a whole, we now see that God chooses His Church based on His Mercy, ...Romans 9:16, and out of that Mercy, we, the Church can submit to actions declared in Romans 10:9.

"""1 Timothy 1:15-17 "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners–of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen." """

Yes Ray, Jesus came to Save sinners who He Chose before the Beginning of Creation. Other sinners were condemned before Jesus hung on the Cross.......Hear Him tell Nicodemus...."he that believith NOT is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"

How can we explain this........How could God, in human form {Jesus} know prior to the Cross, prior to resurrection, and prior to Pentacost that some men were "condemned" for not accepting the fact that He conquered Hell {begotten}???

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

"How can we explain this........How could God, in human form {Jesus} know prior to the Cross, prior to resurrection, and prior to Pentacost that some men were "condemned" for not accepting the fact that He conquered Hell {begotten}???"

Bill M,

I find the last part of this statement somewhat confusing. Are you saying "He conquered Hell" equates to "begotten"? If so, that is not what begotten means. When the scriptures say "...the only begotten Son of God...", they are in fact saying "...the only BORN Son of God..." He did in fact conquer death, the tomb and Hell, but "begotten" does not in any shape, manner or form describe these victories.

Bill L

[Bill McNeal]

"How can we explain this........How could God, in human form {Jesus} know prior to the Cross, prior to resurrection, and prior to Pentacost that some men were "condemned" for not accepting the fact that He conquered Hell {begotten}???"

Bill M,

I find the last part of this statement somewhat confusing. Are you saying "He conquered Hell" equates to "begotten"? If so, that is not what begotten means. When the scriptures say "...the only begotten Son of God...", they are in fact saying "...the only BORN Son of God..." He did in fact conquer death, the tomb and Hell, but "begotten" does not in any shape, manner or form describe these victories.

Bill L

Bill, it's very understandable to be confused by the word "begotten". Automatically we define it as .......Abraham "begat", Issac, who "begat" Jacob, and so forth, which is very correct , to a point. Jesus Christ, while being the image of God's person... Hebrews 1:3, was also the " only begotten" of God, in that He was concieved by God {The Holy Ghost} in the womb of a human woman without sin. Therefore Jesus Christ is indeed the only "begotten" in the sense that no one has been concieved that way, since all men prior, and past have been concieved through human sexual relations which is why they are said to be "born of sin"

HOWEVER, the word "begotten" in Gods Scriptures is much more deep, and profound.........Let us turn to First Peter, and read...........


"""1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"""

The is a key verse in understanding what Jesus has done for us. Here we see the Apostle proclaim, that according to His Mercy, "we are begotten again". into hope????????.........How does a human man who is already "begotten", become "begotten" again????.......Simple, we who are shown Gods Mercy, are said to be "begotten again", or born again if you like.

Now lets get deeper........Turn to Rev 1:5

"""And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"""

Now lets jump back to Col 1:18

"""And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence"""

Do you see it Bill!

See brother, God tells us that our Lord is the "Firstborn from the dead". What that means is that Jesus entered the second death {hell} to pay the death penalty that was placed on you and I. God calls Jesus the "first begotten of the dead", and the "firstborn from the dead" because only Jesus, by His Godly power could enter hell, and be "begotten" out of it. Jesus was Fathered out of Death into Life, for once a human enters Hell, there is no return. Only Jesus could be "begotten" out of Hell. So now we see that "begotten" is just not a word to describe a procreation line, but rather it is the Holy act of a Merciful God who uses the word to describe saving His Son, and children from death!

Not only is Jesus the "Begotten of the dead", but we are also , according to His Mercy, called "begotten again ", this time by a Heavenly Father, rather than a flesh father, when we are raised up with Him out of the first death!

I pray this was helpful to you, and to all who are viewing

Shalom!

[George Tsoukalas]

It would seem to me that the logical conclusion of predestination is that Jesus is not the Savior of ALL of mankind just some-the elect. If I am not one of the chosen then He is not my Savior. It then follows that the idea of predestination lessens His Deity and the importance of His mission as Saviour (Is 43:11, 1 Titus 1:3,4). God's elect in 1 Titus vs 1 are those who have the knowledge of the truth of salvation through Christ. Paul summed it up quite nicely in Phillipians 3:17-21. George

[Bill McNeal]

It would seem to me that the logical conclusion of predestination is that Jesus is not the Savior of ALL of mankind just some-the elect. If I am not one of the chosen then He is not my Savior. It then follows that the idea of predestination lessens His Deity and the importance of His mission as Saviour (Is 43:11, 1 Titus 1:3,4). God's elect in 1 Titus vs 1 are those who have the knowledge of the truth of salvation through Christ. Paul summed it up quite nicely in Phillipians 3:17-21. George

George, the Word of God clearly points out that all men will not be saved, and are condemned.......John 3:18. It also points out that MANY who profess to know God, and follow Him will also be condemned.......Luke 13:23-30. This Scripture, I believe points to the mega- churches we see today that have been born out of human/pagan traditions, such as catholosism, adventism, mormonism, and so forth. Also Scripture tells us that certain men are Created for the sole purpose of destruction......2Peter 2:12



Gods proclaimatiom of His Sovereign Election NEVER lessens the mission of Christ, or detracts from His work. Now George, I totally understand that Gods proclamation of His Sovereign Mercy may lessen the importance of your religous doctrine, and teachings, by showing the error of them, but such doctrine cannot be confused with Biblical Doctrine. Mormonism for example proclaims that their is a "Heavenly Mother". While this may be part of their created doctrine, it in no way diminishes the Truth of Scripture which proclaims that their is one God, with three images, none of which are a "Heavenly Mother". Your "freewill" doctrine, though religous, and tradition in the eyes of men, has no basis in Scripture, therefore it carries no weight outside religous circles.

Sadly George, the "freewill" religous doctrine is a spawn of both political correctness, and greed. By suggesting that man can simply choose eternal life by doing certain deeds, or saying certain prayers, or following certain doctrines, or by joining certain religous groups, it packages salvation in a "huggable", and "lovable" way, kinda of a "one size fits all" sales pitch.

The greed of the "freewill" doctrine is seen by the proliferation of the multi-trillion dollar "christian" businesses we see being hustled in the name of God. and being veiled under denominations like Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Lutheran, ect..... By selling the "you choose" doctrine, the need for a professional "holy man" { the guy that tells you the details of your choice}, and "holy place" { the place where the religous doctrine is funded, } is created.

Adding to the delusion of the "freewill" doctrine of many churches is the false doctrine that suggests that men who are saved, can become unsaved. From their human wisdom, this is a very plausible doctrine. If one believes that ones salvation is based on their "freewill" to choose it, then it goes without saying that many of them believe that they can also lose it, or choose to give it back.

So where do teachers of the Word begin to combat such blasphemy, and false doctrine???........By suggesting to those willing to listen to abandon any "church" which is denominational, incorporated, or teaches that salvation is mans choice. While there are Elect among such "churches", the doctrine of such churches is false, and apostic, and of satan, for there is only one Church, and it has no name, and no man is the head of it. It is my prayer that all men are saved, and that all men can come to know the simple beauty of Gods loving Sovereignty.

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

Why did the early churches, yes, I said churches, each have elders and deacons? What were the purposes of the elders and deacons?

Bill Lamb

[Bill McNeal]

Why did the early churches, yes, I said churches, each have elders and deacons? What were the purposes of the elders and deacons?

Bill Lamb

Bill, there is nothing wrong with using the phrase "churches" to describe LOCAL congregations of Gods Church. As for Elders, and Deacons........They are to provide service to the Flock. The operative word is "They" . Sadly, most religous churches practice a form of paganism which appoints a Solo "leader" over the Body. This is unbiblical, and was adopted when pagans who converted brought the practice of a hired speaker/leader who preached from a pulpit with them.

Nowhere in the NT instruction do we see a teaching of a Solo Pastor, Priest, Bishop, or Pope. These have no Biblical foundation whatsoever. Within the local Body there exists several pastors, deacons, teachers, prophets, and so forth, and this falls in line with Biblical foundation.

Shalom!

[George Tsoukalas]

Yes, Bill,not all men or women will be saved but it is because they freely chose to push Him out of their lives. John 3:18 says there will be no judgment for those who trust Him. George

[George Tsoukalas]

As for 2 pet 2:12, keep reading down 2:21; they rejected the holy commandments given to them the verse says.

[George Tsoukalas]

Bill?. Lk 13 vs 24;9 The door to heaven is narrow. Work hard to get in...?" Vs 26..."I tell yo. i don't know you.." Wher e do you see predestination there? George

[George Tsoukalas]

Bill, I'm not sure you understand the doctrine of free will. I think you may be confusing it with the doctrine of universalism which holds that all will be saved whether or not they see Jesus as Saviour. Free will does not mean that all will be saved. It does mean that God wants salvation for all. It is us, though, who push Him away. He does not push us away. It does mean that all who see Christ as the Way, the Truth and the Life will be saved. Don't take away the hope that is in Jesus Christ from me. Sometimes it's all I have. George

[BLACK WOLF]

The Bible clearly states we are given choices.

The Bible clearly states God was the one, who gave us those choices.

The Bible clearly states we are given a choice to believe.

The Bible clearly states we are to choose between life and death.

The Bible clearly states that we are promised by God if we believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we will be saved.

You have to ask yourself...if God gave us choices, who does He expect to make those choices?

Why would God give us choices to make, if He was making them for us?

If God was making the choice for us, who is responsible for the choice we make?

If God made you choose to not believe in Him and than condem you to an eternity apart from Him, who is responsible for that choice to not believe and to suffer for an eternity?

If there was such a god as that, is that a fair, just and loving God?

Absolutely not, but that is the god a man must believe in, who does not believe in freewill.

Who are we to argue why God made us with the capabilty to disobey and choose wrongly?

At least He loved us so much to let us freely make choices that would also hold us accountable and than give us another choice so that we could be forgiven when we disobeyed.

Our children are not much different.

We don't force them to make choices. We teach and guide them to make their own decisions just as our heavenly Father tries to.

How can anyone disobey or upset God, if it is God controlling them?

Agape,

Ray ;)

[Bill McNeal]

George, let me ask you 2 questions..........

#1 Is it possible that the doctrine of the Greek Orthodox church could be in error?

#2 Is it possible that the men you call priests could be in error with regards to their teaching also?

Shalom!

[George Tsoukalas]

I would say no to 1 and 2, Bill. Let me ask you a question. Is it possible your views of Jesus are in error-namely that Jesus is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit ( I believe that is you view. please correct me if not) :). My friend, and you are my friend because I would have given up long ago if you were not, how we view Jesus is of the utmost importance. This discussion of free will vs predestination means nothing. Jawge

[BLACK WOLF]

I would have to disagree with a statement such as freewill and predestination means nothing and than state how we view Jesus is of the outmost importance.

To me that is contradictory and to say that it means nothing would be wrong in my opinion.

I think I understand what George is trying to convey, but wanted to make sure. I think it could have been better written.

To say that freewill and predestination are the most important aspects to understand would also be wrong in my opinion.

To say that understanding that Jesus is your Lord and Savior is the most important aspect to believe would be correct in my opinion.

The study of freewill and predestination is a window into the character of God and how we view Him. It is worthy of our investigation, but our salvation isn't based on if we believe in freewill or not.

Agape,

Ray ;)

[Bill McNeal]

I would say no to 1 and 2, Bill. Let me ask you a question. Is it possible your views of Jesus are in error-namely that Jesus is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit ( I believe that is you view. please correct me if not) :). My friend, and you are my friend because I would have given up long ago if you were not, how we view Jesus is of the utmost importance. This discussion of free will vs predestination means nothing. Jawge

George, I thought you would claim that your Greek Orthodox doctrine, and your church people are without error. I just wanted to hear you say it publicly. George, there is not much more that can be done. You are deep in throws of pride, and tradition. Until you can except, and admit publicly that your GO church could be wrong, that your church officals could be wrong, you will never be able to admit that you are wrong, and no simple ministers will change that.

You are drowning George, and only the Blood of Jesus Christ can save you. You speak words about Him, yet you have no understanding of Him. If you did, you would be able to confess your flaws. That is my hope, that you will come to such an ability if it be His Will.

Take care George

[George Tsoukalas]

Which Christ, Bill? God the Son, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, The One true and Only God who took on human flesh to die on the cross for me and anyone else who acknowledges Him as Saviour. Guilty as charged. You didn't answer my question. Not fair. :) Jawge

[Bill McNeal]

George, there is only one Jesus. Scripture speaks of Him. That is my Jesus. I am not avoiding you, it is just futile to minister to a man who claims he is without error.

George, I have brought the message to you. It is now up to God to open your heart to respond to it. That is something that I hope all on this forum, and who know you pray for.

Take care George.

[George Tsoukalas]

I never said I was without error. You said that. Doctrinally, there is no errors in my church. Christ is the Head of the Church so there cannot be. Who is Jesus, Bill? Once again my Jesus is God the Son-2nd Person of the Holy Trinity. He is the one true and only God. He is not God the Father though (John 1:1, 14). There is no error in that. Error free statement; yet a critical one. That's what my church believes, Bill. That is orthodox (right way). That is what the Bible teaches. John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word. The Word was WITH God and the Word was God." "With" -"With". Unless you hold to the Trinity you have 2 Gods in John 1:1. This is crucial. And another --John 17:5--"Now Father glorify me with the glory I had WITH you before the world was." "With"-"With". I know this is difficult. There is nothing else i can tell you. I pray the Holy Spirit (that He) will speak to your heart. George

[George Tsoukalas]

If you detect any in me I do ask for forgiveness. I do not mean to come across that way. That is not my intention. My only intention is to bring the word and to witness. All prayers are gladly and willingly accepted. George

[Bill McNeal]

George, there were 2 questions I asked you.........

#1 Is it possible that the doctrine of the Greek Orthodox church could be in error?

#2 Is it possible that the men you call priests could be in error with regards to their teaching also?

You have made it clear that you believe your church doctrine is without error.
Are you still claiming that the teaching of your "priests" are without error?

Are you claiming that YOUR teaching is without error George.???

[George Tsoukalas]

Of course not. They can make mistakes and are fallible

[George Tsoukalas]

Who is Jesus and what is His relationship to the Father and to the Holy Spirit?

[Bill McNeal]

George, with regards to the Greek Orthodox doctrine which you claim to be without error..........






This is a handy outline for people making the false claim that; "The Greek Orthodox Church is the original Church and the one true Church that has never deviated from the original Church."

All these points (and more) also apply to false doctrines in the Catholic Church.



FALSE CLAIM #1

Oral tradition (also called "Holy Tradition") must be followed as well as the Bible.



BIBLE

- 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture thoroughly equips you for every good work.

- Mark 7:1-13 Tradition of religious leaders disrupts God’s word, = hypocrites.

- Colossians 2:8 No traditions.

- Jude 3 The faith was delivered "once for all." The Greek word here for “once for all” is “hapax,” meaning “only one time, never need repeating.” The same word is applied to Jesus being sacrificed “once for all” in Hebrews 7:27, Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 10:10, & Romans 6:10.

- Acts 20:27 “For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God.”

- 2 John 9-11 Go beyond Christ’s teaching = don’t have God.

- Revelation 22:18-19 Adding or taking away from Bible = plagues and no heaven.

- Proverbs 30:5-6 Don’t add to God’s word or you’re a liar.

- Ecclesiastes 12:11-12 Be warned of any other books.

- Jeremiah 10:3 Customs = vanity.

- Genesis 40:8, & 2 Peter 1:20-21 Interpretations belong to God and not men.

- John 8:31-32 Truth = obey Jesus.

- Numbers 21:4-9 with 2 Kings 18:3-4 God had Moses make a bronze serpent. Soon, the people misuse this serpent by burning incense to it. When Hezekiah destroys the serpent, God approves.

- Ezekiel 7:26 “…rumor will be added to rumor; then they will seek a vision from a prophet, but the law will be lost from the priest & counsel from the elders.”

- John 8:47 “He who is of God hears the words of God;…” [not the words of men]





FALSE CLAIM #2

Most members are not required to preach the word and make disciples.



BIBLE

- Matthew 12:30 “…he who does not gather with Me scatters.”

- Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus orders the 11 disciples (verse 19) and all future disciples (verse 20) to “make disciples” (verse 19). “Make disciples” = “matheteuo” in Greek = to instruct with the purpose of making a disciple

(a disciple is a Christian, see Acts 11:26).

- Mark 1:17 Follow Jesus = fisher of men.

- Acts 8:1 with Acts 8:4 All members preach.

- Mark 16:15 “…Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.”

- True Christians are…

…ordered to preach (Acts 10:42),

…preaching and teaching daily (Acts 5:42),

...always prepared to preach (1 Peter 3:15),

…"ambassadors for Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:20),

…sent to preach (Romans 10:14-15), and

…making known God’s deeds among the peoples (Psalm 105:1).

- Luke 9:59-60 Follow Jesus = “…proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God.”

- Matthew 10:32-33 You’ll be denied by Jesus if you don’t confess in Jesus before men.

- Luke 9:26 Ashamed of Jesus’ word means Jesus is ashamed of you.

- Philemon 6 Full understanding of Christ = actively share your faith.

- Colossians 1:28 “And we proclaim Him, admonishing every man & teaching every man…”

-Matthew 5:19 Teach gospel = honor in heaven.

- 1 Peter 2:9 “…that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him…”

- Psalm 150:6 “Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD!”





FALSE CLAIM #3

Don’t need to obey Jesus, as long as you believe in Him.



BIBLE

- John 8:31-47 Belief without obedience = sons of Satan.

- Ezekiel 33:12, 18 Don’t rely on your prior righteousness if you are currently in sin. You won’t be delivered.

- Malachi 3:18 “…distinguish between the righteous & the wicked, between one who serves God & one who does not serve Him.”

- Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ & do not do what I say?”

- Acts 5:32 Only obedient get the Holy Spirit.

- John 3:36 Belief = obey Jesus = eternal life.

- Romans 1:5 Faith takes obedience among all gentiles.

- Romans 16:26 “…so that all nations might believe & obey Him”

- 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 Disobey gospel =eternal destruction.

- 1 Peter 2:7-8 Disbelief = disobey.

- 1 Peter 2:16 “Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.”

- 1 Peter 4:17-18 Household of God obeys gospel of God.

- Hebrews 3:18-19 Unbelief = disobedient.

- John 8:51 Must keep Jesus’ word to get eternal life.

- John 9:31 God only hears those who do God’s will.

- Matthew 28:20 Must obey everything Jesus commands.

- 1 John 2:3-6 Obey and do as Jesus.

- 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 Saved if you hold fast the word.

- Philippians 2:12 Salvation takes work and obedience.





FALSE CLAIM #4

A person can love God without doing what God commands



BIBLE

- John 14:23-24 “…If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, & My Father will love him, & We will come to him, & make our abode with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words…”

- John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep my commandments.”

- 1 John 2:4-6 “The one who says, ‘I know Him,’ & does not keep His commandments, is a liar & the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”

- 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments…”

- 2 John 6 “And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments….”





FALSE CLAIM #5

Church is built on Peter, the Rock (Matthew 16:18 out of context), and members of this group can trace their spiritual lineage all the way back to Peter through their leaders ("Fathers") throughout the centuries.



BIBLE

- Psalm 18:31 “…who is a rock, except our God,”

- Psalm 62:6 “He only is my rock & my salvation,…”

- Isaiah 44:8 “…Is there any God besides Me, or is there any Rock? I know of none.”

- Christ is foundation. Luke 6:46-49, Romans 9:33

- Christ is the Rock. 1 Corinthians 3:11, and 1 Peter 2:4-8

- Matthew 7:24 Words of Christ are the rock.

- Matthew 16:18 "Petros" (Peter) = "pebble" in Greek.

- Peter was never an exclusive leader. Paul had more influence, being apostle to the Gentiles, the larger group (Galatians 2:7-9). Paul rebukes Peter, who stood condemned (Galatians 2:11-16). Peter wrote 2 brief New Testament books. Paul wrote 13 books, including one to the Romans.





FALSE CLAIM #6

Most members are not priests.



BIBLE

- All true Christians are priests.

1 Peter 2:9-10, 1 Peter 2:5, Revelation 1:6, Revelation 5:10





FALSE CLAIM #7

Priests addressed as “Father”



BIBLE

- Matthew 23:9 Religious leaders forbidden from being addressed as “father.”

- Ephesians 4:6 “one God & Father of all…”





FALSE CLAIM #8

Church leaders are secure and can never fall away or teach untruths.



BIBLE

- Matthew 24:1-3 When the Jerusalem temple is destroyed [within 40 years from the time Jesus spoke]…

Matthew 24:10-12 “…many will be caused to stumble…” & “…many false prophets will arise…” & “…the love of many will grow cold.”

Matthew 24:24 “…false Christs & false prophets will arise & will show great signs & wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.”

Matthew 24:34 “…this generation will not pass away until these things take place.”

- Acts 20:29-30 False leaders arise soon after Paul left Ephesus.

- 2 Peter 2:1-3 False teachers & leaders within the church are active in the 1st century. Many within church follow in destroying truth.

- 2 Timothy 4:1-4 " time will come" when men seek false teachers who water down the truth to make them comfortable in sin.

- Galatians1:6-8 1st century Christians quickly desert the gospel & were confused. Perverting the gospel is attempted. Altering word of God = eternal condemnation.

- 1 John 2:18, 4:1 Antichrists (people speaking untruths about God) already active.

- Matthew 7:13-15 Only a few will be saved.

- 2 Corinthians 11:26 False Christians were active & dangerous in Paul’s time.

- Galatians 2:4 False brothers snuck into the church & were active.

- Ezekiel 7:26 “…rumor will be added to rumor; then they will seek a vision from a prophet, but the law will be lost from the priest & counsel from the elders.”





FALSE CLAIM #9

Original sin: Everyone inherits Adam’s sin. All are born guilty.



BIBLE

- Deuteronomy 24:16, and Ezekiel 18:20 Sins aren’t inherited from other people. Die for your own sin.

- 2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:5-7 Judged according to your own deeds.

- Ezekiel 14:20 Father can’t pass on his deeds to his children.

- Job 13:26 Job inherits the sins of his own youth

- Zechariah 12:1, Hebrews 12:9, and Ecclesiastes 12:17 Our spirit comes directly from God.



FALSE CLAIM #10

Infant baptism: Baptize babies so they can go to heaven in case they die young.



BIBLE

Children already have citizenship in heaven.

- Matthew 19:14 Kingdom of heaven belongs to the children.

- Matthew 18:1-3 Become like children to get in heaven.

- Matthew 18:10 Children have angels who always behold God.





continued

[Bill McNeal]

FALSE CLAIM #11

Infant baptism: Faith, learning, & under-standing can come later



BIBLE

- Candidates for baptism must first…

…believe (Mark 16:16)

…have faith in God (Colossians 2:12, & Hebrews 10:22),

…make an appeal to God (1 Peter 3:21),

…be taught how to be a disciple (Matthew 28:19, John 4:1-2),

…repent (Acts 2:38),

…be taught about Jesus from the scriptures (Acts 8:26-39),

…repent & have faith (Hebrews 6:1-3), and

…call on Jesus’ name & have sin that needs to be washed away (Acts 22:16).

- Acts 8:12 Men & women (not infants) baptized when they believed.

-Hebrews 10:32 “Remember those earlier days after you had received the light,…” [conversion is to be remembered].

-Ephesians 3:17 “so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith…”





FALSE CLAIM #12

The Christian enters into the new covenant as an infant at baptism.



BIBLE

- Hebrews 8:8-12 Can’t enter into new covenant until you know the Lord. Not like old covenant (which was entered into at infancy: Genesis 17:11-12).

- Jeremiah 31:31-34 In new covenant, can’t be God’s people until after you have already been taught & know the LORD.

- John 6:45 “…Everyone who has heard & learned from the Father, comes to Me.”

- Isaiah 55:3 “…Listen, that your soul may live; & I will make an everlasting covenant with you,…”

- Psalm 25:14 “The secret of the LORD is for those who fear Him, & He will make them know His covenant.”





FALSE CLAIM #13

Infant baptism is valid since households were baptized.



BIBLE

- Acts 18:8 “And Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.”

- Acts 16:30-34 Whole household must believe 1st.

- 1 Corinthians 1:16 “Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas…” combined with 1 Corinthians 16:15-16 (regarding this household of Stephanas) “…they have devoted themselves for ministry to the saints,” and “…be in subjection to such men…”

- Context of the "household" scriptures are those able to believe (not infants).





FALSE CLAIM #14

Water is poured or sprinkled on baptism candidate



BIBLE

- Acts 8:38 Baptism candidate must be completely immersed in water. Baptism = “baptizo” in Greek means to immerse, not “rhantizo” (sprinkle), or “chreo” (pour).

- Baptism is…

…a burial (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12),

…a birth of water (John 3:5), and

…a washing of your body (Acts 22:16, Hebrews 6:1-3, Hebrews 10:22, Titus 3:5).

- Mark 1:9-10 At baptism, Jesus came “up out of the water”

- Ezekiel 47:1-12 Water from the house of God rises from ankle high, to waist high, to a flowing river (deep). This water brings healing & life. Shallow water is not associated with healing.





FALSE CLAIM #15

Lord’s Supper is a weekly sacrifice of Jesus.



BIBLE

- Lord’s supper not a sacrifice, it is…

…a proclamation of Jesus’ death 1 Corinthians 11:23-26, and…

…a remembrance Luke 22:19.

- Hebrews 9:26-28, 10:10-14, & Romans 6:10 Jesus sacrificed “once for all,” not once a week.

-No more sacrifices (Isaiah 66:3) when Christians come (Isaiah 65:15).

- Amos 5:21-22 Sacrifices rejected.





FALSE CLAIM #16

Bread & wine at the Lord’s supper physically changes into the physical flesh & blood of Jesus in each eater’s body (John 6:26-59 out of context). Transubstantiation.



BIBLE

- Acts 15:28-29 All disciples ordered NOT to drink blood or eat raw meat.

- Acts 20:7-11 Gathered “to break bread,” not break flesh.

- No Lord’s supper verse calls the bread Jesus’ flesh. The word “body” is used figuratively. Jesus is also figuratively “a gate” John 10:7, and “a vine” John 15:1.

- John 16:25 Up to that point, Jesus spoke “figuratively.”

- Matthew 13:34 “…Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable,”

- Too much communion wine gets you drunk. Can’t get drunk on blood.

- John 6:26-63 is about the Holy Spirit and total daily commitment to Jesus’ word, which nourishes us (1 Timothy 4:6). John 6 is taught an entire year before the Lord’s supper, and contains no Lord’s supper instruction. Combining John 4:10-14 with John 6:27 and John 6:35, Jesus gives spiritual (not physical) nourishment without limit. This refers to the Holy Spirit.

- John 6:63 “flesh counts for nothing”

- Matthew 26:28-29 “the fruit of the vine” is only symbolic of Jesus’ poured out “blood of the covenant,” since Jesus hadn’t died yet.

- 1 Corinthians 10:2-4 Christ = spiritual food & drink, not physical food & drink.

- 1 Corinthians 8:8 Food won’t commend us to God





FALSE CLAIM #17

Lord’s Supper transformation is a miracle.



BIBLE

- Lord’s Supper never called a miracle.

- When Jesus physically changes one liquid into another by a miracle, the difference can be tasted (water into wine for wedding at Cana, John 2:1-11), and the difference can be seen and smelled (Nile river water into blood, Exodus 7:20-21).





FALSE CLAIM #18

Statues and icons are used in the worship service.



BIBLE

- Hosea 13:2-3 Kissing statues is a sin.

- Acts 17:29-20 Manmade art and objects are not related to God. This is “ignorance,” so “repent.”

- Micah 5:2, 13 After Jesus, carved images are cut off. Bowing to statues is forbidden.

- John 4:23-24 Worship in spirit, not objects.

- In Old Testament, only objects specifically detailed and ordered by God for the worship service could be made & then used in worship (Exodus 25:18-22, Exodus 36:8-35, 1 Kings 6:23-29, 1 Kings 7:23-26).

- Numbers 21:4-9 with 2 Kings 18:3-4 God had Moses make a bronze serpent. Soon, the people misuse this serpent by burning incense to it. When Hezekiah finally destroys this serpent that Moses made, God approves.

- Manmade religious items not ordered in detail by God…

…are deceitful & worthless (Jeremiah 10:3-15),

…are forbidden (Isaiah 44:9-20, 1 John 5:21), &

…are teachers of falsehood (Habakkuk 2:18).

- Isaiah 30:20-22 With Jesus, images and objects for worship no longer needed (Isaiah 31:6-7).





FALSE CLAIM #19

Christ dwells in the church building. The Church building is holy.



BIBLE

- Acts 17:24 God does not live in temples built by human hands.

- Acts 7:44-51 God does not live in houses made by men. Thinking that God dwells in manmade constructions = resisting the Holy Spirit.

- 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & 1 Corinthians 6:19 Each Christian’s own body is a temple of God.

- Isaiah 27:9 No more altars.

- John 4:20-21 Place of worship is irrelevant.

- 1 Kings 8:27-30 Temple that Solomon built cannot contain God. Only God’s name shall be in the temple. God’s dwelling place is in heaven.

[Esquire]

Bill,

Next time why not just post the link to the site you cut and pasted from, especially when it's so long and you are just cutting the entire page anyway.

That way interested parties can click on the link and see if they agree with the author. It also helps to provide your source when you are quoting someone else's work, just so your readers can evaluate the source for themselves.

Here is the link itself: http://www.fineartsguild.com/guild/member_newsDetail.cfm?memberID=25&newsID=67

Mike

[Esquire]

BTW, I don't blame you for not wanting to say "This is what "Silly Daddy" says about the Greek Orthodox church!" :)

Sounds kind of, well - silly!

I assume you personally are sure that each of "silly daddy's" representations about the Greek Orthodox Church are fair and accurate representations of that church's positions?? I hope you are...

To be honest, I did not read the link. Partly because I don't really know who "silly daddy" is.

Mike

[Bill McNeal]

Well, how about this Mike........What do you think. George claims that the doctrine of the GO church is without error. What say you Mike. Do you believe that it is without error?????????

Shalom!

[Esquire]

Don't know much about the Greek Orthodox Church, Bill.

I'm honestly more interested in hearing your answer to Jawge's patiently repeated question:

"Who is Jesus and what is His relationship to the Father and to the Holy Spirit?"

Now make sure you give us your answer and not "silly daddy's!" :)

Mike

[Bill McNeal]

Mike , you asked me to answer the following

""""Who is Jesus and what is His relationship to the Father and to the Holy Spirit?" """

Surely Mike..........However, unlike those who worship under the religions of men, my answer will come out of the Holy scriptures of God...........

***In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.***

***Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.***

Jesus said........***I and my Father are one.***

***Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:***


Jesus said.........***Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.***

***Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.***

Jesus said ***And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jesus said ***Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.***

***Let us create man in OUR image***

Jesus said...***Before Abraham was, "I AM"***

***For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.***

***There is One God***


You see Mike, that is my Jesus. Not the Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Mormon, Advent, Baptist, JW, Dunker, Amish, Presbyter, Methodist, Lutheran, Universalist, Pentecostal, Church of God, Nazerene, First Assembly, and on and on, and on ,and on Jesus.Not the Jesus that is twisted, redefined, revamped, and rewritten in post Biblical Doctrines of men, and religous sects. .......but rather the Jesus described by Himself, in HIS HOLY BIBLE!

Mike, listen CLEARLY..........If you feel the need to have some fourth century Catholic doctrine describe who Jesus is to you, then do so, but Mike, PLEASE, PLEASE do not give those of us who simply rest on Scriptures to define who Jesus is a hard time. I hope one day you will grow enough to accept the fact that some folks feel that their Bibles are all that are needed.

So how bout this. I won't hassle you for clinging to Roman Catholic doctrine for truth, if you don't hassle me for clinging to the Bible for truth???

Deal???.............. :)

Shalom!

[Esquire]

Huh? :sbrug: .

Is this all a trick to keep from asking you . . . "Who is Silly Daddy, and what does he do?" :)

Just for the sake of clarity - I believe you and I have read the same scriptures and come to opposite conclusions about certain things. Some of those things are very important and some are not as important. But hey! We also agree about some very important things.

I have read the same scriptures, upon which I also rely. You are a good man, Bill. From what I can tell. I really want to hear your answer in your own words. It's Bill McNeal, the unique individual made in the image of his creator that I want to hear. Not Silly Daddy, or even a scripture quote. But you, yourself. [Please note - In this context, I am not wanting to hear the scripture because we have both already read it and come to different conclusion. We are both familiar with the quotes from the bible. This is just you to me, telling me what you have made of those scriptures.]

I don't want to belabor the point, but I want you to know that I really am interested if hearing your answer. If you're not comfortable providing one, I understand. I'm not trying to trap you, I just want to work out a common dialogue.

So here's the question, because I think it's a good one: In your own words (if you are willing): "Who is Jesus and what is His relationship to the Father and to the Holy Spirit?".

Mike

[Bill McNeal]

Mike, you want me answer you in context with your religous doctrine. You ARE trying to trap me, the same way the pharisees "tried" to trap Jesus. They too tryed to get Jesus to answer in worldly wisdom, however He was to Wise to fall for that trick, and the Wisdom He gives me also allows me to not fall for it.

When they tried to trick Jesus into their schemes, what did He do? He pointed to Scripture, to the Word of God, and He frustrated, as I am now frustrating you. You see Mike, you don't want me to respond to your questions with Scriptures, but rather you want me to respond as "Bill McNeal". You see "Bill McNeal" can be refuted, but you CANNOT refute Scripture, and this is why you are frustrated Mike. You can post all the smiley faces you want. Your agenda sticks out like a sore thumb. You see Mike, I am not on trial here. I am not your witness, locked into your line of questioning, and that really bugs you.

That is why you mock Joe Chiappetta (Silly Daddy} The man is a husband, father of 2, a preacher, and a Christian. However because he professes Gospel that you cannot fit into your Religous traditions, you mock him. You only mock him because he to lays out his case, and uses DIRECT BIBLE QUOTES to support it. Then you try to discredit me, for posting the Scriptures that Joe uses to support his positions.

So the answer is NO Mike.........There is NO way I will adress matters of Faith with anything other than Scripture. The religous world is full of people who will accomadate you in that respect, but I won't . So, I have already provided Scripture to support my belief of Who Jesus Is. It's really unimportant if you see it as valid, or not. What matters is, is that it is Gods Word, God is Perfect, and thats good enough for me.

Shalom!

[Esquire]

Alrighty then, Bill. Just asking a question. I'm not mocking this Chiapetta (silly daddy) or his "positions". I do not know anything about him. Just choosing a light mannered way to suggest that we credit our sources. If he is a husband and a father and a Christian that is all to his credit in my book, provided he discharges those stations faithfully and humbly. If it is important to you that he is also a preacher, so be it as well.

When two people read the same scripture (or anything else for that matter) and come to a very different conclusion, it is not unusual for them to discuss it between themselves. That is all I was seeking. In that context it is not necessarily helpful for them both to simply keep reading the scripture at each other.

Mike

[Esquire]

Here's another way of looking at this. When Jesus asked his disciples "who do you say I am?" "Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:15-16).

Would you (any Reader) say to Him "You are the Christ, the Living God himself?" or would you say, with Simon Peter "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God"?

[WildmanSC]

Here's another way of looking at this. When Jesus asked his disciples "who do you say I am?" "Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:15-16).

Would you (any Reader) say to Him "You are the Christ, the Living God himself?" or would you say, with Simon Peter "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God"?

Mike,

Actually, I would say in total agreement with the Holy Spirit, who verbally and plenarily inspired every jot and tittle of scripture, say "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God."

Bill Lamb

[Bill McNeal]

Jesus is no doubt, the Son of the Living God. Scripture says so, and I believe it. The same perfect Scriptures also call Jesus the Word , Emmanuel , I am , the Bread of Life, The Vine, The Counsellor, The Comforter, The Prince of Peace, The Image of God, Saviour, Messiah, Rabbi, The Son of Man, The First Born , The First Born of the dead, The First Begotten of the dead, The Everlasting Father, The King of the Jews, the Head of the Church, The Redeemer, the Alpha and Omega, The Lion of Judah, and so forth.

Jesus is all of these. Do you know why?.......Cause He said so. Nuff said!

Shalom!