2 thessalonians 2:13.......???

[Bill McNeal]

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Any thoughts?

Shalom!

[Esquire]

Bill,

I never thought to catch you soliciting a man's opinion on a scripture http://tradtalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif.

(Sorry, just couldn't resist :) )

Seriously, tell us what your specific question is and I will take a crack at helping you figure it out.

Mike

[WildmanSC]

I have a thought, how about we look at this passage in context.

II Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

When looked at in context, !! Thess 2:13 is NOT a proof text for what the Hyper Calvinist/Election gospel types would want it to be.

In verse 10 we see:

1. with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish
2. because they received not the love of the truth
3. that they might be saved.

The key elements of this verse is that the unrighteous (or in unrighteousness) are so because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved. Please note, it does NOT say they are unrighteous (or in unrightoeusness) because they are not of the Elect.

And in verse 11 the word of God says:

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

For what cause? Because they are not of the Elect? NO, because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved.

And verse 12 says:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Who are damned? Those that are not elected? NO, those who beleiveth not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Now for verse 13:

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The Calvinists/Electionists focus on solely one phrase in this verse:

because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation


But to do so is to do it in error. The real key of this passage is "...through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

The question that bears asking is which comes first, the sanctification of the Spirit, or belief of the truth. The Calvinists/Electionists will argue the sanctification of the Spirit. But such an arguement is inaccurate and lacking in scriptural validity. Sancitification is a process that will not be completed while we are here on earth. It will in fact be completed when we are in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ! In fact, belief of the truth, of the Gospel of Christ Jesus and Him crucified, buried and resurrected on the third day is essential for salvation. See Romans 10:9.

Bill Lamb

[Bill McNeal]

Bill, why did you not answer my question...........Who are the Elect Bill?........Are you among them?.........Curious minds want to know :)


Bill you said...........

"""The question that bears asking is which comes first, the sanctification of the Spirit, or belief of the truth."""

Well, lets read the scripture.........

*But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:*

It says that from the beginning , that God has *chosen* our Salvation, through *sanctification* of the Spirit, and *Belief* in the *truth*

Sadly, many will try to decieve the Elect into thinking that people can freely believe on their own, without God chosing them, or without the Sanctification of the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Most pagan religions teach that salvation is in the hands of men. Thankfully, according this Scripture of God, we are eased to see that God has arranged our Salvation, and that only through Him, His Holy Ghost, are we sanctified, and made able to Believe this Truth!

Bill, you also said...........


"""Sancitification is a process that will not be completed while we are here on earth. """"

Gee Bill, Scripture says different...............

1 Corinthians 1:2
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

------------

Notice the words "are sanctified" Bill???

Heres more Scripture that disagrees with your claim Bill..........


Hebrews 10:10-11
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

By the which will we ARE sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

---------

Theres that "are" word again........ :) ........wait, there is more.........


Jude 1:1
Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
------

Hey Bill, can you point to the direct Scripture that says we are not sanctified on earth, like you claim????

Shalom!

[larry]

brother Bill Lamb, in regards to sanctification, I believe that the Scripture teaches we are sanctified (set apart) unto God by justification, and are therefore declared to be holy. This sanctification is positional and instantaneous (upon receiving Christ). it shouldn't be confused with progressive sanctification. it has to do with the believers standing, not his present walk or condition. ( Acts:20;32, 1Cor 1:2,30; 6:11, 2Thes 2:13 Hebrews 2:11, 3:1 10:10,14 13:12 1Peter 1:2)

There is also a progressive sanctification ( by the work of the Holy Spirit) in which the state of the believer is brought closer to the standing that the believer holds positionally thru justification in Christ ( John 17:17,19 Romans 6:1-22 2Cor3:18 1Thess 4:3-4,5:23) this is the daily conflict we face in battling the flesh. Totaly eradicating sin in our lives is never completly finished this side of heaven. But God thru His Spiritprovides for victory over sin. ( Gal 5:16-25 Eph 4:22-24 Phil 3:12 Col 3:9-10 1Peter 1:14-16 1Jonh 3:5-9

to God be the glory!!


larry

[WildmanSC]

"This sanctification is positional and instantaneous (upon receiving Christ). it shouldn't be confused with progressive sanctification. it has to do with the believers standing"

Bro. Larry,

You hit the nail on the head when you typed "...is positional and instantaneous (upon receiving Christ)..." And furthermore, to receive Christ, we must first believe in and upon Him and His substitutionary death, burial and resurrection.

Bill Lamb

[Esquire]

Brother Bill,

It looks a little like you are resurrecting the argument that you graciously promised another moderator that you would lay down.

I like to give a man the benefit of the doubt, and so I assume that you are not just starting up where you agreed to leave off on the thread where this subject was already debated ad nauseum.

I assume you have an honest question about the scripture you referenced. If you will tell us in plain spoken words what your question is, I for one will do my best to help you find an answer.

Mike

[Bill McNeal]

Brother Bill,

It looks a little like you are resurrecting the argument that you graciously promised another moderator that you would lay down.

I like to give a man the benefit of the doubt, and so I assume that you are not just starting up where you agreed to leave off on the thread where this subject was already debated ad nauseum.

I assume you have an honest question about the scripture you referenced. If you will tell us in plain spoken words what your question is, I for one will do my best to help you find an answer.

Mike

Mike, If you would read my opening post closer, you'll see that I posted a certain Scripture, and asked for thoughts on it, and NOT questions about it. Either you have thoughts on the Scripture, or you don't. If you do, please state them, if you don't, then that is fine.

Sometimes Scripture doesn't even need comment. The scripture I posted is the kind that you can just sit back, and take in.........but thanks for your concern............... :)

Shalom!

[Bill McNeal]

Bill Lamb you said.............."""""""'Sancitification is a process that will not be completed while we are here on earth. It will in fact be completed when we are in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ!"""""""

Then you said..............""""""Bro. Larry,

You hit the nail on the head when you typed "...is positional and instantaneous (upon receiving Christ)..." And furthermore, to receive Christ, we must first believe in and upon Him and His substitutionary death, burial and resurrection.""""""""" :sbrug:

Now Bill, correct me if I am wrong........You first say that Christians are NOT sanctified on EARTH, then you say you agree that sanctification is INSTANTANEOUS upon recieving Christ. Well, if according to you we cannot recieve Sanctification on earth, yet we recieve it instantly upon recieving Christ, where are we when we recieve it???. Are you saying we don't recieve Christ on Earth????

Then if that is the case, if according to you we cannot recieve sanctification on earth, and we can't recieve Christ without belief, are you saying you do not belief in Christ at the present here on earth???

Shalom!

[George Tsoukalas]

He called us all to believe and be saved. Some listen :). Some don't :(. The Thessalonians did and were among the first to taste the sweet salvation of Christ. Paul is praising them for their steadfastness. Are we reading more into this verse than we should be? :) Jawge

[WildmanSC]

Bill Lamb you said.............."""""""'Sancitification is a process that will not be completed while we are here on earth. It will in fact be completed when we are in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ!"""""""

Then you said..............""""""Bro. Larry,

You hit the nail on the head when you typed "...is positional and instantaneous (upon receiving Christ)..." And furthermore, to receive Christ, we must first believe in and upon Him and His substitutionary death, burial and resurrection.""""""""" :sbrug:

Now Bill, correct me if I am wrong........You first say that Christians are NOT sanctified on EARTH, then you say you agree that sanctification is INSTANTANEOUS upon recieving Christ. Well, if according to you we cannot recieve Sanctification on earth, yet we recieve it instantly upon recieving Christ, where are we when we recieve it???. Are you saying we don't recieve Christ on Earth????

Then if that is the case, if according to you we cannot recieve sanctification on earth, and we can't recieve Christ without belief, are you saying you do not belief in Christ at the present here on earth???

Shalom!

Bill McNeal,

If you will read Larry's post in its completeness, you will see I am agreeing with his definition of sanctification of "being set apart" and that we can receive it only by believing in Jesus Christ. He also goes on to state the process of sanctification to make us Christlike is an ongoing process that starts upon salvation (when we believe upon Jesus Christ and His death, burial and resurrection) and is completed when we are in His presence in Heaven.

Bill, you are the master of taking parts of statements, quoting them out of context and giving your own definition to them. If you have to ask the question "Do you believe we can believe in Christ on earth?", you have not been paying very close attention to my posts. Which just verifies what has already been noted by others, you are not interested in an honest discourse to find the truth, but rather want to discount the viewpoints of others and endeavor to put forth your distorted interpretations of the scriptures as truth.

Bill