Paper Tuning

[bowshooter74]

When Paper tuning what is the best distance to start from? 5-10 yards, few feet? do you guys think some small tear either way is acceptable with 5" feathers? if so how much tear? sry all the questions. Also i wanted to ask about the paper itself, Newspaper is thin and will allow to see everything but is it to fine i have some other paper on a large roll id like to try its somewhat heavier then newspaper, what do you think?? :sbrug:

[mysticguido]

I do it at 5' then 10' and then 20' for fine turning. 1/8" to 1/2" tears are ok (right handed to the left) (Left handed to the right) to the side and just a little on the upper corner.

[Viper]

bowshooter -

15' and any tear less than 1" is sufficient. If you can get the tear smaller with minimal effort, great, but there's point of diminishing returns. For example a going from a 1/2" to a 1/4" tear, probably won't give you a point on your final score. Bullet holes are nice, and certainlt attainable, but the fact there we have three problems to deal with (index, middle and ring), some times rule out "perfect".

Given the archer's paradox, 5' can be a waste of time, and by 10 yds the feathers should have stablized the arrow enough to mask any but the most obvious errors. Compound guys can tune at 5' as their paradox, if any, is minimal by comparison.

Viper out.

[bowshooter74]

thanks guys i think i am ok, i tried at about 15'. some shots i got lil more tear than others then the next shot i get a bullet hole. So i put a 3 blade muzzy on which i hunt with all i see is the point hole and 3 slices and a tiny tear on the one blade slice about 1/4 " being finger shooter i would say that would be ok? if anything maybe another quarter inch of shaft thats if i do anything,

[Stagmitis]

Sorry guys....

I just dont trust paper tuning for stickbows. Its quite amazing how easily flaws can be disguised by feathers.

Bowshooter74...

When you think your arrow is perfectly tuned on paper strip the feathers off 3 arrows and bareshaft them.

I would be curious to see how they group.

[BLACK WOLF]

Paper tuning is not really any different than bareshaft tuning in my opinion, because the arrows indicate on paper how tuned an arrow is.

A fletched stiff arrow for a right hand shooter will have a nock right indication on paper, which transfers to bareshaft group that will be left of the fletched feathers or have a nock right flight pattern.

I bareshaft tune first (kick method...not OL's) and than fine tune with paper.

Ray

[bowshooter74]

well i went to paper tuning because it seems everything i shoot out of this SA is nock left, i shorten the arrows up so they are flying strait and then i put feathers on and a broadhead and there to stiff flying off to the left. Thats after cutting the shaft starting from 29" working down to 28". which i cant shoot a 28" arrow because its too short, what i mean by that is i over draw slightly and settle into anchor, i have great success that way so i like a shaft at 29" .

Ive tried biulding out the shelf, nock point and all brace hieghts for the bow. The weaker spine i go the farther right they go, eventuallly missing the target completely to the right with a bad hook. The bow is 53lb with a 12 strand MM string. I just cant think for the life of me this 53 lb bow needs that stiff an arrow. all indication from the paper with a 29" arrow it is flying fine with Broadheads and without.

Dont get me wrong i would love to be able to bareshaft like some of you all do. I just have a wail of a time getting them to fly the way you all do with this bow. maybe its the bow? the tiller is fine ive checked it, ive got the side plate built out about .080".

somtimes bareshafting is so frustrating to me i question its reliability, if paper can give me the same results then ill go with it. I can bareshaft this arrow in the vicinity of my fletched, but right and low. besides that there always nockhigh, i lower the nock then they start hitting the shelf. tuning is a pain somtimes. :sbrug:

[Floxter]

Bowshooter74, at the club we use a frame that holds large rolls of butcher paper. There are two kinds: waxed and unwaxed. We use the unwaxed paper. Costs about $28/roll, but a roll with last us a year or two. It's stiffer than newprint, but still soft enough that you can see a tear made with feathers and vanes print fine.

[Limbwalker]

Paper tuning for recurves/longbows is almost useless. You can use it to help set initial nock point, but other than that, only bareshafting will give you a true indication of what's going on.

John.

[Bob Gordon]

I agree with Limbwalker, paper tuning only really works good with a release as the arrow comes out a lot straighter from the bow. Bare shafting and the planeing test is the only way to go to get it right without pulling all your hair out trying to figure what your doing wrong.....warf

[Viper]

Limbwalker, warf -

Sorry guys gonna have to respectfully disagree with ya on this one.

It's been used for years, and like anything else it's a tool. Understand how it works, and it's limitations and it does what it supposed to do. Will bare shafting at 70M tell ya more, sure, will it help most shooters more? Don't think so, IMHO.

:shooting:

Viper out.

[Stagmitis]

Bowshooter,

Not quite sure what you mean by the arrows flying "Straight". I can get bareshafts to fly straight and still be a few inches to the left and the right.

Question is are your bareshafts hitting dead center of the aiming point.

If so, they are too stiff. They have to show slightly weak to account for the feather weight which stiffens spine.

[Stagmitis]

oops! One more thing.

Whats your actual draw and what size and type of arrow are you using?

[Desert Archer]

Question is are your bareshafts hitting dead center of the aiming point.

If so, they are too stiff. They have to show slightly weak to account for the feather weight which stiffens spine.


Stag,

I was going through parts of McKinney's book (again) reciently and I don't think he agrees with you. He seems to think with proper set up, bare shafts should group with the fletched ones.

Couriouser and couriouser!

Dave

[BLACK WOLF]

Based on my experience....bareshafts should group at least out to 20yrds with fletched shafts, but should still show very slight indications of being nock left for a right handed shooter.

I have been told by one particular person that a perfectly tuned arrow can fly out to 70 meters showing slightly weak all the way to the target and still group with the fletched shafts.

It may be possible, but I personally haven't been able to do it and have yet to see someone else do it.

The only way I can shoot a bareshaft and have it group with my fletched arrows beyond 20 yrds is when it is flying absoluty straight.

Based on what I believe and have seen...a bareshaft will fly in the direction it is pointed, so if it is showing a slight indication of being weak for a right handed shooter, it is pointed to the right and it should hit the target increasingly to the right of the fletched arrows the further you increase the distance from the target.

Ray ;)

[BLACK WOLF]

I don't know about some of you guys...but bareshaft tuning is pretty simple...at least for me it is ;)

Ray

[bowshooter74]

Good insight here by all of you, so according to a couple of you guys maybe im closer with the bareshaft than i think. My draw is 28" and i shoot an arrow length of 29". At 29 inches both my Carbon express and the SST are hitting at about 3 to 4 oclock if you picture the target as a clock, and i am aiming dead center. the distance from center does increase like what was stated before as i shoot farther out.

I was trying to geth them flying perfectly strait and cut them down to almost 28" and according to what you said they should have gotten more stiff when i put the fletching on.{and they did} I went and changed my BH and NP and now i am getting some porpousing.

What causes shafts to glance or hit the shelf? what i did was brought out my BH and raise my nock point. My nock point is pushing 1 inch high? is that normal? Its an SA, maybe that info will help also but it really should matter the Bow should it. From what isse around here you all are shooting some efficient bows so tuning shold be tuning.

If i didnt make the right adjustment maybe you guys have some suggestions? :help: :sbrug:

I guess i should add ....the Bow 53@28 and shooting SSTs 230s cut to 29 and about 1/8 if i recall right. Carbon express are the 45-60 Term. H cut to 29.

another thing i tried was i put lipstick up the feathers about an inch or a little less and say nothing on my riser after several shots.

[BLACK WOLF]

bowshooter74,

I shoot a SAIII Widow with 2419s and my nock height is at 3/8" above center.

If you are shooting carbons, which are thinner, your nock height should be between 1/4" and 3/8" above center.

Based on my experience, your 1" nock height would explain your arrows hitting your shelf.

Ray

[James Wrenn]

I do not have a good enough release to paper tune shooting fingers.I always used it when shooting compounds with a release but bareshaft my bows now.A lot of times I pick the right setup and it shoots very well I don't bareshaft at all.My bows that go to the woods they have all been at least checked with bareshafts to make sure it is as good as I can get them. jmo

[bowshooter74]

Blackwolf,

what wieght are you shooting that bow at? so if im understanding you correctly my high nock point is causing my arrows to glance off the shelf? Thats about the lowest NP ive read so far of somone shooting an MA or SA.

I get around 1/2 to 5/8 of an inch and they really start wacking the shelf. anythoughts? ill try and keep working on it and post back later.

[bowshooter74]

whooohooooo i figured it out boys.

i got to thinking on blackwolf saying his nock point was so much lower than mine, well i shoot split finger and i dont like to crimp the nock in my fingers and started wondering if my nock was sliding down the string as i drew and released.
Well i lowered my nock backdown to about 1/2 ' or just slightly above and tied some artificial sinew below the nock, not alot but enough to just hold the arrow from sliding. I took the 28" arrow{sst} to B.O.O. {back of outsert} well i shot it through paper bareshaft at about 15 yards, stiff! slightly but stiff. about a 2" tear to the right! im like alright now im getting somewhere because that arrow BEFORE flew weak as all the rest but with feathers it planed off to the left nock right with a broadhead. Now i have a bareshaft that matches what that{bareshaft} arrow was doing. :)

so ok i already have one with feathers on it cut to 29" or a tick over that flies pretty decent with all my point BH included, SO i took another and made up a bareshaft of 29.5" to B.O.O and shot it Bareshaft throught the paper and got a 2.5 to 3" tear to the left with point of impact to the right.

so i cut that one down to wear the fletched one is @ 29" B.O.O and shot it through the paper and bingo, no bullet hole but a tear left at bout 1.5 to 2" inches consistently. I dont know if i wannt cut it down more?

its a little nock high maybe 1".

one release the tear was even across so i dont think im going to mess with my nock. There really flying right with my fletch but slightly weak and i think thats what i want because i plan on putting a crestwrap on the back.

All this time i was shooting arrows that where flying good with this sliding problem but once in about so many releases i was hearing what was actually the arrow glancing off the shelf from my nock sliding down the string. and all of you already know that it doesnt take much to have a nock slide down the string once its nocked especially with the smaller stranded strings.

And the Glancing was making everything show weak. real weak, somtimes you could hear it others you couldnt. so now i have the other end of the spectrum to help tune. It was like trying to tune without all the info, and it was getting pretty frustrating, so now with all the info i can get from all you target buffs i can really tune these things in, i love these shafts too!

im afraid to touch anything now. but a big thanks to all you guys who took the time post on the thread. Im going to go do some :shooting: :highfive:

thanks