Churchianity Today by Chip Brogden [Archive]

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WildmanSC

03-24-2005, 02:22 PM

(Due to lack of comment and apparent interest, this post has been deleted)

Bill McNeal

03-24-2005, 04:19 PM

Interesting

Bill McNeal

03-25-2005, 02:48 PM

Well I had a chance to sit down this afternoon, and read into some of Chips thoughts, and He seems like He is on the right track. I think the guy teaches with alot of Spirit behind his words.............Here is the link for those interested..........http://www.watchman.net/

Shalom!

WildmanSC

03-25-2005, 07:31 PM

Bill McNeal,

I see you found the link. It is easy to see from whence oh so many of your cut and paste comments are coming. I see you are a disciple of Mr. Brogden. How about Mr. Branham? Are you also a disciple of his one God Pentecostal teachings?

If Mr. Brogden looks down the track he is on, he may well see a light. He might ought to keep his ears peeled though, he's liable to hear a train! From reading His writings, I see very little if any scriptural references, just the bleatings of a man with his own agenda. As for the Spirit leading and guiding him, I don't think the Spirit would be involved with one who avoids the use of scriptures.

Bill Lamb

Bill McNeal

03-26-2005, 04:14 AM

WildmanSC

03-26-2005, 06:14 AM

Actually Bill, I never heard of Chip Brogden, until you posted that link. Also, I would invite you to "try" and link anything I have posted here, to his writings, you see when I use the words of others, I always point this out. However, if it soothes your anger, by accusing me of being a disciple of this man, then I'll bear that false accusation.

I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. Once again, I just think you are angry, because you are beginning to realize that there are numerous Christians who don'y buy into your religous traditionalism, and who actually challenge it openly.

Shalom!

Bill,

I am hardly angry. And I know there are quite a few who believe in the Calvinist doctrines put forth by you and Mr. Brogden. I just find it curious how you have to misuse the Bible to endeavor to make your points, then resort to proclaiming it is "the Power of the Spirit in me" that has given me understanding when challenged with the untruths posted. You even resort to selectively picking and choosing the questions you will answer. Sad, sad, sad.

Bill L

Bill McNeal

03-26-2005, 07:11 AM

Bill, I am not a Calvinist. I have never even read the writings of Calvin, because I have never been lead to do so. I just preach Scripture. Just because it makes you uncomfortable doesn't change the fact that the Scripture is True............

Here is some Scripture.........

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."""

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2 Timothy 2:4
No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier

James 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Romans 9:23
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

---------------

Alas, the Truth of Scripture!

Shalom!

WildmanSC

03-27-2005, 07:35 AM

Good scriptures, but only can be clearly understood in the context of:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Predestination/election/calling is based on God's foreknowledge of who would believe. Man still has the will, th opportunity to choose to believe, or not believe, in the gospel of Christ Jesus and Him crucified, buried and resurrected.

Bill Lamb

02 Chief

03-27-2005, 05:58 PM

WildmanSC

03-27-2005, 06:41 PM

"Once again, I just think you are angry, because you are beginning to realize that there are numerous Christians who don'y buy into your religous traditionalism, and who actually challenge it openly."

Bill McNeal,

If anybody is angry because so few believe their unscriptural doctrines it would be you. You can call me angry, and I'll forgive you. It is an untruth that is easy to toss about. You have not met me, talked with me, nor can you give specific examples of my "anger". You can only make the untrue accusation.

It might be worthy of note that I found the link to watchman.net by doing a search on the internet for the first part of your email address watchman2003. I merely typed in "watchman" in my search engine and bingo, there was watchman.net by Mr. Brogden. It is amazing how the exact same language that you use to describe organized churches, "building with a steeple on top, professional, hired pastors, etc" are precisely the same language Mr. Brogden uses in many of his writings on the Church. It may be just a coincidence, but, somehow it would be very unusual for you to use the precise language of someone of who you have never read, supposedly.

Bill Lamb

Esquire

03-27-2005, 08:33 PM

Hi i`m new to the board and was just reading about Chip Brogden the other day.
IMO a lot of people are getting real good at covering up their false doctrine with good scripture they know you want to hear. There are a lot of tv preachers like that.
I use this web site often to check out people i`m not familiar with. :)
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/

Chief,

That is an interesting link you have provided. Some recent discussion on other threads put me in mind of the "United Pentecostals" cult, which denies the Trinity. There is an interesting link on the site you provided which sets forth the "united pentecostal" position followed by the Orthodox position. I did not read every line, but what I saw appeared helpful.

http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar75.htm

I also founf the following link to be helpful in understanding this cult: http://www.watchman.org/profile/onenesspro.htm

Thanks,
Mike

Bill McNeal

03-28-2005, 03:11 AM

Bill McNeal

03-28-2005, 03:44 AM

Mike, though this church adheres to the trinty doctrine {which it created}, does the follow practices I am going to list, in YOUR opinion earn it the distinction of cult, that you gave to a church that doesn't believe in the doctrine?????

Mind you, the following is a link I am posting, and not my words, but I am REALLY interested in hearing your opinion on the matter....That is, are they a cult??????

-------------

1. OF ALL THE HUMAN TRADITIONS taught and practiced by the Roman Catholic Church, which are contrary to the Bible, the most ancient are the prayers for the dead and the sign of the Cross. Both began 300 years after Christ ... 310AD.

2. Wax Candles introduced in church about 320AD.

3. Veneration of angles and dead saints about 375

4. The Mass, as a daily celebration, adopted 394AD.

5. The worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, 'Mother of God', as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus in .... 431AD.

6. Priests began to dress differently from the laity in 500AD.

7. The doctrine of Purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great about the year 593AD.

8. The Latin language, as the language of prayer and worship in churches, was also imposed by Pope Gregory I. 600 years after Christ ...600AD. The Word of god forbids praying and teaching in an unknown tongue. (1Cor.14:9).

9. The Bible teaches that we pray to God alone. In the primitive church never were prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints. This practice began in the Roman Church about 600AD. (Matt. 11:28; Luke 1:46; Acts 10:25-26; 14:14-18)

10. The Papacy is of pagan origin. The title of pope or universal bishop, was first given to the bishop of Rome by the wicked emperor Phocas, in the year 610AD. This he did to spite Bishop Ciriacus of Constantinople, who had justly excommunicated him for his having caused the assassination of his predecessor emperor Mauritius. Gregory I, then bishop of Rome, refused the title, but his, successor, Boniface III, first assumed title "Pope." Jesus did not appoint Peter to the headship of the apostles and forbade any such notion. (Lk. 22:24-26;Eph.1:22-23;Col.1:18;lCor.3:11).Note:-Nor is there any mention in Scripture, nor in history, that Peter ever was in Rome, much less that he was pope there for 25 years; Clement, 3rd bishop of Rome, remarks that there is no real lst century evidence that Peter ever was in Rome."

11. The kissing of the Pope's feet began in 709AD. It had been a pagan custom to kiss the feet of emperors. The Word of God forbids such practices. (Read Acts 10:25-26; Rev. 19: 1 0; 22:9).

12. The Temporal power of the Popes began 750AD. When Pepin, the usurper of the throne of France, descended into Italy, called by Pope Stephen II, to war against the Italian Lombards, he defeated them and gave the city of Rome and surrounding territory to the pope. Jesus expressly forbade such a thing, and He himself refused worldly kingship. (Read Matt 4:8-9; 20:25-26; John 18:38).

13. Worship of cross, of images and relics was authorized in 788AD. This was by order of Dowager Empress Irene of Constantinople, who first caused to pluck the eyes of her own son, Constantine VI, and then called a church council at the request of Hadrian I, pope of Rome at that time.

14. Holy Water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by the priest, was authorized in 850AD.

15. The veneration of St. Joseph began in 890AD.

16. The baptism of bells was instituted by Pope John XIV, in the year 965AD.

17. Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV in 995AD. Every believer and follower of Christ is called saint in the Bible. (Read Rom, 1:7; I Cor. 1:2).

18. Fasting on Fridays and during Lent were imposed in the year 998AD.

Imposed by popes said to be interested in the commerce of fish. (Bull, or permit to eat meat), some authorities say, began in the year 7OOAD. This is against the plain teaching of the bible. (Read Matt.15:10 1Cor. 10:25; 1Tim.4:1-3).

19. The Mass was developed gradually as a sacrifice; attendance made obligatory in the 11th century. The Bible teaches that the sacrifice of Christ was offered once and for all, and not to be repeated, but only commerated in the Lord's Supper. (Read Heb.7:27; 9:26-28; 10: I 0- 14).

20. The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII, in the year 1079AD. Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (Read 1st Tim. 3:2,5, and 12: Matt 8:14-15).

21. The Rosary, or prayer beads was introduced by Peter the Hermit, in the year 1090AD. Copied from Hindus and Mohammedans 1090AD. The counting of prayers is a pagan practice and is expressly condemned by Christ (Matt 6:5-13).

22. The Inquisition of heretics was instituted by the Council of Verona in the year 1184. Jesus never taught the use of force to spread His religion ...1184AD.

23. The sale of Indulgence, commonly regarded as a purchase of forgiveness and a permit to indulge in sin, began in the year 1190AD. Christianity, as taught in the Bible, condemns such a traffic, and it was the protest against this traffic that brought on the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.

24. The dogma of Transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III, in the year 1215AD. By this doctrine the priest pretends to perform a daily miracle by changing a wafer into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive in the presence of his people during Mass. The Bible condemns such absurdities; for the Lords Supper is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper. (Read Luke 22:19-20; John 6:35; I Cor. 11:26).

25. Confession of sins to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III, in the Lateran Council, in the year 1215AD. The Bible commands us to confess our sins direct to God. (Read Psalm. 51: 1 - 10; Luke 7:48; 15:21; John 1:8-9). 26. The adoration of the wafer (Host), was decreed by Pope Honorius in the year in 1220AD. So the Roman Church worships a God made by human hands. This is plain idolatry and absolutely contrary to the spirit of the Gospel. (Read John 4:24).

27. The Bible forbidden to laymen and placed in the Index of forbidden books by the Council of Valencia in 1229AD. Jesus commanded that the Scriptures should be read by all. (John5:39: lTim.3:15-17).

28. The Scapular was invented by Simon Stock, an English monk, in the year ... 1287AD. It is a piece of brown cloth, with the picture of the Virgin and supposed to contain supernatural virtue to protect from all dangers those who wear it on naked skin. It is fetishism.

29. The Roman Church forbade the cup to the laity, by instituting the communion of one kind in the Council of Constance n 1414AD. The Bible commands us to celebrate the Lord's Supper with unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine. (Read Matt. 26:27; I Cor. 11:26-29).

30. The doctrine of Purgatory was proclaimed as a dogma of faith by Council of Florence in 1439AD. There is not one word in the Bible that would teach the purgatory of priests. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins. (Read I John 1:7-9; 2:1-2; John 5:24; Rom. 8: 1).

31. The doctrine of 7 Sacraments affirmed in 1439AD. The Bible says that Christ instituted only two ordinances, Baptism and the Lord's Supper. (Read Matt. 28:19-20; 26:26-28).

32. The Ave Maria, part of the last half in 1508AD. It was completed 50 years afterward and finally approved by Pope Sixths V, at the end of the 16th century.

33. The Council of Trent, held in the year 1545, declared that Tradition is of equal authority with the Bible 1545AD. By tradition is meant human teachings. The Pharisees believed the same way, and Jesus bitterly condemned them, for by teaching human tradition, they nullified the commandments of God. (Read Mark 7:7-13; Col. 2:8; Rev. 22:18).

34. The apocryphal books were added to the Bible also by the Council of Trent in 1546 These books were not recognized as canonical by the Jewish Church. (See Rev. 22:8-9).

continued...........

Bill McNeal

03-28-2005, 03:44 AM

continued.............

35. The Creed of Pope Pius IV was imposed as the official creed 1560 years after Christ and the apostles, in 1560AD. True Christians retain the Holy Scriptures as their creed. Hence their creed is 1500 years older than the creed of Roman Catholics. (Read Gal. 1:8).

36. The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in the year 1854AD. The Bible states that all men, with the sole exception of Christ, are sinners. Mary herself had need of a Savior. (Read Rom. 3:23; 5:12; Psalm. 51:5; Luke 1:30,46,47).

37. In the year 1870 after Christ, Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of Papal Infallibility 1870AD. This is a blasphemy and the sign of the apostasy and of the antichrist predicted by St. Paul. (Read II These. 2:2-12; Rev. 17:1-9; 13:5-8,18). Many Bible students see the number of the beast (Rev. 13:18). 666 in the Roman letters of the Pope's title: "VICARIVS FILLII DEI." -V.5, I-1; C-100, l-l: v-5, 1-1; L-50, 1-1; 1-1-Total, 666.

38. Pope Pius X, in the year 1907, condemned together with 'Modernish", all the discoveries of modern science which are not approved by the Church... 1907AD. Pius IX had done the same thing in the Syllabus of 1864.

39. In the year 1930 Pius XI, condemned the Public Schools ... 1930AD.

40. In the year 1931 the same pope Pius XI, reaffirmed the doctrine that Mary is "the Mother of God.... 1931AD. This doctrine was first invented by the Council of Ephesus in the year 431AD. . This is a heresy contrary by Mary's own words. (Read Luke 1:46-49; John 2:1-5).

41. In the year 1950 the last dogma was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII, the Assumption of the Virgin Mary ....1950AD.

CONCLUSION: What will be the next invention? The Roman Church says it never changes; yet, it has done nothing else but invent new doctrines which are contrary to the Bible, and has practiced rites and ceremonies taken bodily from paganism. Some scholar has found that 75 % of the rites and ceremonies of the Roman Church are of pagan origin. For over 1600 years the Roman Catholic Institution has been accumulating opinions made up in their own councils, plus other ideas taken from Judaism and other pagan religions which are absolutely opposite to the Word of God. This should be understood by the soul winner in dealing with Roman Catholics.

---------------------

Well Mike, what say you????

Shalom!

Unregistered

03-28-2005, 05:24 AM

Again, for what it is worth, I pointed out earlier that I had no prior knowledge of Chip Brogdans "Watchman" site. My watchman2003 e-mail name was taken from my handle "watchman", a handle which was used by me on various different sites. One would easily go to "Hunting info systems, click on "politics" and she some of my writing that goes back a few years. I chose the handle then, because I feel all ministers are "watchman" over the church.

I first viewed the writings of Brogdan about a week ago when Bill Lamb posted it. I really thought he posted it to get opinions on the mans writing. I did not realize that he actually found it, and posted it in an attempt to discredit me. I have posted the writings of Brogden I have read this week, because I find them Bible based, in the same way I find the writings of John Zens Bible based.

However, the fact that certain people seek to discredit me, by falsely accusing me of being part of certain internet web pages, and by searching the internet , looking for ways rebuke lets me know that they are being cut to the heart by what I teach {Jesus Christs Gospel, of Him, by Him} and they are lashing out in an attempt to make look back, and most important and sad is that they have abandoned the Bible, and seek worldy weapons to win their percieved battle.

Shalom!

Bill McNeal,

Brogden's website is watchman.net not watchman.org. Watchman.org does a rather good job of pointing out snake oil salesmen, such as Mr. Brogden and Mr. Branham, who use just enough scripture to appear authentic, yet deny the scriptures in their full context. Who is Mr. Branham, he was a Pentecostal Evangelist in the 1930's who held a week of meetings with a single God Pentecostal church and then decided he, too, believed in a single God, although he had believed and preached differently prior to that time. He proceeded to preach heresy thereafter.

Bill Lamb

Esquire

03-28-2005, 07:50 AM

Bill,

I'm going to answer your question straightforwardly, and I'm going to say something that you might find offensive. Please understand that I do not say it for the purpose of being offensive. I just need to make my position clear.

Generically, cult means group. But I mean the word in the sense that a cult is a group that claims to be christian but teaches fundamental or foundational doctrines that clearly set it apart from the christian faith.

Within any cult there may be found sincere but misguided individuals, as I believe that there are in the rank and file of the Mormon church. People who in their innocence and ignorance think they have confessed the same Jesus found in the Bible, and honestly believe we worship the same God, Yahweh.

The United Pentecostal church is a cult because it denies the Trinity. As to the Catholic church, you have posted a laundry list of supposed doctrines. Maybe they are all catholic doctrines, maybe they are not. I have to honestly tell you that I have read enough of your history lessons to know that I must listen cautiously, and test everything! This is not said to be offensive, just to let you know that I do not trust your history lessons to be accurate and I do not have time to independently research everything you posted in your question.

With that being said, I will answer your question. The Roman Catholic Church is not a cult. The RCC has made terrible blunders, throughout history. It has traditions that I do not suscribe to. But it is not a cult in the sense of the word as I use it.

I am not capable of debating RCC doctrine with you or anyone else. Therefore I will not attempt to do so. But I wanted to give you the courtesy of a direct answer to a direct question.
Mike

WildmanSC

03-28-2005, 08:04 AM

"By tradition is meant human teachings. The Pharisees believed the same way, and Jesus bitterly condemned them, for by teaching human tradition, they nullified the commandments of God. (Read Mark 7:7-13; Col. 2:8; Rev. 22:18)."

Bill McNeal,

There is no difference between a church teaching "tradition of man" and the teaching of a new and different tradition of man that you and Mr. Brogden espouse. Non-scriptural teachings are non-scriptural teachings whether it be within the context of a church or of individuals.

Bill Lamb

Bill McNeal

03-28-2005, 12:18 PM

Mike, you said..............

"""I'm going to answer your question straightforwardly, and I'm going to say something that you might find offensive. Please understand that I do not say it for the purpose of being offensive. I just need to make my position clear."""

You don't get it, do you Mike. I preach Christ Crucified, and Risen......How can I get offended by anything you say?????

"""Generically, cult means group. But I mean the word in the sense that a cult is a group that claims to be christian but teaches fundamental or foundational doctrines that clearly set it apart from the christian faith."""

Well Mike, do you consider praying to dead people part of Christian Faith???

Is calling Mary the Mother of God, and praying to her part of Christian Faith???

What about counting prayers, and the purchase of permits to sin Mike, is this part of the Christian faith of what you speak????

You said..........

"""Within any cult there may be found sincere but misguided individuals, as I believe that there are in the rank and file of the Mormon church. People who in their innocence and ignorance think they have confessed the same Jesus found in the Bible, and honestly believe we worship the same God, Yahweh."""

Does that include folks who see nothing wrong with kissing the rings, and feet of other Christians, and claiming that sins can be absolved by telling them to other sinners????

You said.........

"""The United Pentecostal church is a cult because it denies the Trinity."""

I agree, but not because denies a doctrine that WILL NOT BE FOUND IN SCRIPTURE, but rather because like most denominational churches, they focus on everything else before Jesus.

You said.............

"""As to the Catholic church, you have posted a laundry list of supposed doctrines."""

Actually the doctrines I posted are accurate. Just because you refuse to believe it changes nothing.

You said.............

""""Maybe they are all catholic doctrines, maybe they are not. I have to honestly tell you that I have read enough of your history lessons to know that I must listen cautiously, and test everything! This is not said to be offensive, just to let you know that I do not trust your history lessons to be accurate and I do not have time to independently research everything you posted in your question."""

Well, that is fair enough, Since you don't trust what I say, would you agree that it would be wise for you to first research for yourself before commenting on what I cut and pasted???

You said........

"""With that being said, I will answer your question. The Roman Catholic Church is not a cult. The RCC has made terrible blunders, throughout history. It has traditions that I do not suscribe to. But it is not a cult in the sense of the word as I use it.""""

I quess not :) .....Gee Mike, I maybe a little slow but didn't you just say that you lacked the time to research what I posted?. How can you claim that the RCc is not a cult, without researching it. I assume you researched the UPc before declaring it a cult, didn't you???. Without reasearch, how can you claim they, the RCc are not a cult??????

You also said............

""""I am not capable of debating RCC doctrine with you or anyone else."""""""

Then why are you making claims to what you know they are, or are not. Should not a man wait to become learned in a matter before expressing an opinion???????

Then you said........

""""Therefore I will not attempt to do so. """"

but you have, you did!

Lastly you said.............

"""But I wanted to give you the courtesy of a direct answer to a direct question."""""""

I musta missed it ........ :) :) :)

Shalom!

Bill McNeal

03-28-2005, 12:22 PM

BTW Mike, the same cult finder you used to expose the UP church, also claims that the Seventh Day Adventist church is a cult. The only problem with that Mike, is that the advents believe in the Roman Catholic Trinity doctrine like you do. Is that possible?, can a trinity church be a cult too????

Shalom!

Esquire

03-28-2005, 12:39 PM

Bill,

:) You asked for my opinion, then slapped at me for giving it! :)

Mike

Bill McNeal

03-28-2005, 12:57 PM

I don't think soo bro. I am a man who just likes consistency........ :)

Esquire

03-28-2005, 01:38 PM

Bill,

Huh???

Mike

WildmanSC

03-28-2005, 01:41 PM

"I don't think soo bro. I am a man who just likes consistency........"

Bill McNeal,

For a man who has gone down more rabbit trails that 10,000 cottontails, it is really difficult to see you as being consistent.

Bill Lamb