45 acp hardball 230 gr

[rusty craine]

reported and believed to be an over penetrater. Ain't so. Out of a ~5" H&K tactical (borrowed pistol) single shot thru the heart and both lungs on a 104# pig the bullet was under the skin on the off side. hit one rib going in none on the offside.. well placed shot. pig went about 10 steps and folded. I know a single shot does not prove much but I don't consider it an over penetrater from this experience. I was pleased with the bullet performance for a hard ball. deformed very little but did the job remarkable well.

rusty

[Lambow]

A couple of years ago, I gave a 180# boar a finnishing shot to the head with a 1911 using 230 hard ball, after knocking him down from around 100 yds from a 5.56 round. On butchering him out, the bullet was found in his left shoulder.... the bullet took a 90 degree turn. I'd of thought it would of blown through the other side of his head.
The bullet was deformed with ~ 45 degree angel.

[Desert Archer]

rusty,

Your experience mirrors what I heard from a number of forensic people I talked to while in Law Enforcement. Generally speaking 45 Ball will penetrate an adults chest cavity and stop just under the skin of the off side or back.

I don't know where the myth of over penetration got started but suspect some of it came from the NYPD experience back when they first went to semi-autos from revolvers. Being politically correct (East coast liberal political mentality) they wouldn't consider hollow points so issued 115g FMJ 9mm rounds. Now the military 9mm has always been known for it's penetration more than it's stopping ability. Not surprisingly NYPD experienced a number of over penetrations shooting FMJ 9mms. From that the arm chair commandos seem to have extrapolated that all FMJ pistol rounds over penetrate. Not good science, or even good reporting of facts, but that never stopped to so called experts and the internet just makes it worse.

45 Ball has been stopping the bad guys effectively for 98 years but that's not good enough for the "newer, better, faster, hotter" crowd. Oh well, the confidence of amateurs is the envy of professionals.

Dave

[Sam Dunham]

The big bullet with the round end has no set path. It hits and has a tendancy to be guided by the tendens, muscles and organs that steer it through the anatomy by the nature of the round nose. Hardball, truncated cone 45 caliber and even the (best, the Keith Lyman moulded 255 gr. SWC) are all better than good stoppers. The 9mm FMJ has the ice pick effect of causeing the wound channel, then just a bleed hole with little tissue damage. I used to shoot Bowling pin matches years ago with a 1911 comp gun. I wanted a pin load that would blow the pin off the the table with consistancy. I came up with the old Keith SWC bullet and 4.8 grains of Bullseye. The big frontal area of the bullet would steer the pin to the rear of the table even with a side hit.Of course all my 1911's were throated and polished so they fed good. There's and old saying 'shootem with Ball and watchem fall" that seems to ring true. Make sure however that the ball loads you might depend on are 900 feet or more at the muzzle. I have seen some of the weak ones not penetrate enough.

[Desert Archer]

Have to disagree with you about the velocity Sam. I know of no factory or military ball load that came close to 900 fps. More were around or just over 800 fps. The last mil-spec data I looked as called for 830 fps +- 15 fps, meaning anything from 815 fps to 845 fps would have been in spec for that contract. The hottest civilian factory ball round I ever chronographed was a Fioche (sp? the Italian ones) and that was something under 850 fps. Most came in around 800 fps.

The Federal Match Ball my old department issued for a number of years averaged around 805 fps for all the lots I tested. We issued ball because they couldn't count on how well various guns would feed and we wanted functional reliability over any other consideration. Every shooting we had where the shots were well placed (center of body cavity) resulted in a stop, and no over penetration I might add. Marginal hits are marginal hits no matter what the caliber or bullet design...and we had a couple stops with marginal hits (LOL).

Dave

[Bowcephalus]

Uh DA that depends on what you're shooting in bullet weight. I shot some .45 Speer +p 200 hp that clocked over 900 from a SA Micro. Suprised me too, but it's out there in a factory load....

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=636613

[rusty craine]

Back in the 60's and 70's [before steel silhouettes took over] I shot NRA Center Fire Pistol matches. Just enough Bulleyes to work the sping 99% of the time and a 200gr cast bullet. I don't know the speed of the bullet as it didn't ever matter on a peice of paper. For a factory pistol the H&K had a good trigger. the Remington green box 230gr hard ball I was using had more recoil than target kit does. don't know the speed of thehard ball bullet either. it shot higher than my target load did but likely the recoil moving the barrel up. the H&K shot the load very accurately at 25 yds. From a 2 hand hold I was holding the 10 ring with about 50% X's Dang I forgot how big the 10 rings are?????? Must be getting old. for a factory fighting gun the H&K is a real nice gun. with hard ball loads the sights never came off the scoring rings. I was back on the center hold quickly. I could have put two rounds in the pig easily but I saw the dirt (dust) fly off the first hit. didn't need a second

it was a a nice load compared to the 10MM I usually shoot (glock 20 and s&w 1060). I think I'll stick with my 10 though :)

rusty

[rusty craine]

I don't know much about fighting guns either but I tell ya the S&W 1006 after Lou Williamson (local pistolmsith) got thru with it, it will put a hole where ya want it out to 50 yds. it is pretty old school. single stack, very accurate after Lou got thru with it (was before too really). not sure it would be a gun I wanted to carry around all the time. 2#15oz loaded but helps smooth out the 10 MM. Ha that is about what I want a wieghted riser to weigh. :)

rusty

[Desert Archer]

Uh DA that depends on what you're shooting in bullet weight. I shot some .45 Speer +p 200 hp that clocked over 900 from a SA Micro. Suprised me too, but it's out there in a factory load....

Bow,

I was talking strictly about "230g Ball" not getting to 900 fps.

There are a number of JHP & "+P" 45 ACP loads that meet or exceed 900 fps. The one I always liked best was Hornady's standard pressure 200g XTP. It shot right at 900 fps from a 5" barrel and duplicated my last hand load (before I gave that up) of a 200g plated RNFP over 6g of 231. Ran thousands of rounds of that through a Glock 21, a 1958 Government Model and a Wilson KZ-45. All shot the handload and the Hornady factory load exactly the same.

Dave

[Lambow]

Sam, the old saying that I've heard, for 45acp is "They all fall to hard ball"

I'd like to do some tests someday with hardcast lead 230 RN, to see if they blow thru an animal carcass. I believe they would, and am pretty sure the FN Keith round will.

It's been claimed the older 45acp defensive rounds (HP) wouldn't open up when shot into an adversary. Though the newer ammo is supposed to, like Win. Ranger, Fed. HST, Speer GD, and Corbon.

The defensive rounds in 9mm. are also pretty healthy now, with +P & +P+ ammo, that will open up to 3/4 of an inch in diameter inside an adversary.

[Bowcephalus]

Yep I thought that might be the case DA. I went back and dug up the notes on that Micro I made. It was 200gn. Speer Gold Dot + P and it was 925 f.p.s. from a 3" bbl.
1050 from the 5" Springfields. I was suprised.

[Sam Dunham]

I stand corrected! I have never chronoed a hardball load. I must be thinking in personal preferance terms. I respect my elders to keep me in check. Thanks Dave.

[Desert Archer]

Sam, over the years I've heard a number of people express the idea that a true 900 fps Ball round would be the ideal 45 ACP fodder. Not sure I agree with that (and not sure I don't) but your not the first one to call for it.

As an interesting side note to this discussion of the 45 ACP cartridge, JM Browning's original concept for the cartridge was a 200g bullet at 900 fps. The Ordinance Department specified a 230g bullet because that was what they had used in the 45 Schofield round. They felt going to the original 45 Colt's 255g bullet was too much but Browning's idea of 200g was just to new-fangled for those extremely conservative bureaucrats. Thus the 230g Ball round was born.

Dave

[Sam Dunham]

I do know that heavy bullet and more powder would certainly pound the VIS and guide rods to a point of premature wear on the pistol. I do think that before the 'shok buff' which I do not like for reasons of reliabilty and shortend stroke with standard ejectors and shorter slide travel in compacts. Colt had the genius to heat treat thier original recoil spring guides to a softer hardness than the frame. I have seen them peen a little, but maintained thir shape. This gave the 'cushion' effect, and I would just as soon have it over the full length in the 1911 platform, so It makes the extraction of a swelled or lodged case easier. Yes I know that most manufactorers are now doing the Bowtie cut in the VIS to relieve the lug jack pressure effect (sheers lugs) but still I have seen it not done in some of the most recent so called 'custom offerings'.
Maybe these guys figured the best from both sides of the 'Bumble Bee" round and eliminated the 'pressure curve' by keeping the velocity down by sacrificing the extra hundred feet and loseing the extra 800 to a 1,000 pds. of chamber pressure it would have created. Yes the old cartridge will still do it in the hardball configuration at less than 20.000. Most target loads at 38 special or less.

[Desert Archer]

I've never understood the need, or practical use of the full length recoil spring guide rods in the 1911 pattern pistol. The original recoil spring guide always worked just fine for me. I've heard it claimed that the full length guide rods prevent spring binding. When I ask how many bound recoil springs they have had or seen I always get a blank look.

As for pounding of the frame from recoil, I never worried about it on steel framed guns but had a good bit of trouble with alloy frames. I wore out (cracked) three Colt Commanders (the original name, now referred to as the Lightweight Commander). The first one cracked at the dust cover after about 2500 rounds. Colt replaced the frame under warranty. That frame cracked in two places after some 5000 rounds. The third one, which I still have, cracked in three places (thumb safety cutout, grip safety cut out & slide stop pin hole). That frame now has an aluminum 22 conversion unit riding it's rails.

OOPS! Kind of got off the subject of hardball didn't I? (LOL)

Dave

[rusty craine]

DA - Na in this case ya can't seperate the 1911 from the hard ball. The only 45 acp I own is a sig sauer p220 SAS. last year I shot it in a Thrusday night league indoor practicle type shoot. since it is a weapon I carry (concealed handgun license) i thought i made since to use it in the league. I could not out shoot the lawman in the league as some of them were very good did score higher than some of the professional though and that was kinda scary :).

the sig has an alloy frame. I have not had a problem that I have identified yet but I have not shot hot stuff thru it. It shoot the remington green box hard ball with all the accuracy I can muster out of a double action only trigger. Actually I like the pistol. no safeties, no cocking the hammer, pull thru the tigger and it is in action. I like the sig trigger better than the glock. no stageing. same feel from start to finish. not a 1911 copy by a long shot but I have found it to be a quality weapon for the first 1200 rounds at least. maybe easier to clean and maintain than the 1911.

rusty

[rusty craine]

Ah sorry ment no offense. I am not sure why I expected all police personell to be good shots (by my standard). They weren't bad shots by any means. I guess maybe that was why they were in the league, to get better. Some of those guys were very good shots.

rusty

ps some the guys did have serious attitude problems till you proved yourself on the score board. I guess they didn't expect a dumb looking old halfwitt had shoot 10000's of more rounds than they had every seen over the yrs. dang young whipper snappers :).

[Sam Dunham]

No Rusty none taken. Dave will tell you that some Cops are terrible shots and do not take cleaning and maintenance serious. Some slobs do exist, and anything in the attitude problem usually signals insecurity to me. Your Sig will fair better than the 1911 frame, hence the long and better supported rails. The slide release or lock, whichever one calls it, is placed more strategic on the Sig with a recoil block made of steel. The Sig is a very good pistol.

[Desert Archer]

I've been out of the business for a number of years rusty but my experience was most cops can't shoot, at least not compared to interested civilians who compete in matches (of any kind).

I am not much of a fan of the SIG although I've know a lot of people who are. If I had to have on it would be DA only. To quote Jeff Cooper, the DA/SA mechanism is the answer to a question that never should have been asked. (smile)

Dave

[Lambow]

To quote Jeff Cooper, the DA/SA mechanism is the answer to a question that never should have been asked. (smile)
Dave

..... and, the soultion to a problem that never existed. :D

[Sam Dunham]

I think Jeff called them "Crunchentickers", Yes and the mechanism is trainable, but I would also be in the DA only corner also. Why break it up into a transition after the first shot was executed? Mess's up shot cadence and stability for the second shot.

[Sam Dunham]

Yes and he liked the CZ-75 design, but the Bren Ten was carried in cond one capability. I had a CZ for awhile myself, naaa.