How Many Births? How Many Deaths?

[WildmanSC]

Two simple questions, a variety of answers. We must answer the first question before we can really answer the last question.

How many births?

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

In John 3 we see Jesus saying Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God..

Then we see in verse 4 that Nicodemus is clearly confused: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

In verse 5 Jesus provides Nicodemus with the answer Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I strongly suspect Jesus saw confusion on Nicodemus face after his answer of verse 5 as he further clarified it in verse 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. There are many denominations that confuse these passages as well. They take verse 3 and Acts 2:38 to mean that a person must be baptized to be saved. But clearly, that is taking these two passages totally out of context relative to the entire canon of scriptures.

Okay, now we all have the first birth, we are born of water, i.e., our Mother's water broke, when we were born of the flesh. The next question we must answer is have we been born of the Spirit. The answer to that question will determine the answer to the question "How many deaths?"

John 3:36 provides the answer for the latter question no matter what our answer is to the former question:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

If we are born again, we have everlasting life and will only taste death at most once when we die the physical death. But praise the Lord the Bible tells us "...to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Hallaleuah what a promise. If a person is not born again, he/she will taste two deaths. The first death will be the physical death and the second death will be the eternal one when all non-believing, unsaved souls are cast into the pit AFTER the Great White Throne Judgement along with Satan. That is not a fate we should wish on our worst enemy!!

Bill

[Cato]

First of all, Bill, where have you been? You have been noticeably absent, so it seems, from this forum. You gotta check on us out here man, we may get off track! :)

Here is a twist on your question/commentary. What dies?

Most people think of themselves as a human being (fleshly body) with a spirit inside. But aren't we really spirit beings, temporarily trapped or placed inside a human body? And isn't it true that the physical body, for all of us, dies, and the spirit within, for all of us continues to live? Well, for the unsaved guy, the spirit will continue to live eternally separated froom God, which the Bible lables as death, spiritual death.

I am in no way taking issue with your comments. That would be foolish. I am just sort of expanding upon them, I think. The Bible is referring to death in the spiritual sense, ie eternal separation from God. And that would be truely Hell.

I have heard it said that we are all going somewhere, either smoking, or non smoking. :)

Help me here if I'm wrong.

Cato

[Swanny]

If we are born again, we have everlasting life and will only taste death at most once when we die the physical death.

Just a minor point, but a relative one...

Christ said "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it" Mark 8:34,35

Paul said "I die daily..." I Cor. 15:31 and, "I am crucified with Christ, therefore I no longer live...." Gal.2:20.

Anyone who wants Christ's righteousness He offers as the Most High Priest, but doesn't want to surrender his life for the King's purposes on a daily basis will not see life eternal after he dies physically. The genuine follower of Christ will die the shameful and agonizing death to self time and time again (not perfectly by any means I Jn.1:8-10, but this will be the characterizing pattern of one's life I Jn.2:4).

So I would respectfully add this dimension to the death factor you mention above, but wholeheartedly agree in the 'death of death in the death of Christ'!

Did you ever think of physical death as being God's way of limiting each person's arrogance? While we're on the subject...why is it that we are so inclined to be shocked when a little child dies and not suprised when an 80 year old person dies when given the truth that God's justice and immense hatred of sin could rightfully demand EVERY person's life upon physical birth since each of us is born in sin (Rom.3:23). We ought to be totally shocked that any of us could make it to 80....even if we believe! From a Christ-centered perspective we know it's only because of God's longsuffering and tender mercies (even to the unjust) that we have another day to live and breathe! Ps.103

[DaveHawk]

I like to look at it this way; Although I am alive I curified the flesh by becoming born again. I am dieing to the flesh each and every second.

Romans 6:6 For we know our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be done away with,that we should no longer be slaves to sin-

Romans 13:14 Rather, clothes yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to qratify the desires of the sinful nature.

I die every moment to sin by denighing the flesh this is death to me, for me to live is gain knowledge of Christ but to die to the flesh is to be with Him in spirit as much as I can. Physicial dead we have no control over, so I don't look to that I look to denighing the flesh and being with the Lord though out my life here with is my gain and then to be with Him when the flesh is dead. How many time have I said; Lord I'm ready? come quickly. I can not count. And each time I sin I know I have seperated my sopirit from Him till I repent.

[WildmanSC]

Hmmm, I see I was not clear enough in my initial presentation. The first death is the physical death that all will taste, unless we as born again believers are alive and on the earth when Christ returns to Rapture His Church. In that event we would not taste even that death.

The second death is in fact spiritual death of the non-believers. They are in fact already spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, so, if they die the physical death in that condition they are eternally doomed to separation from God. Their soul and spirit will be cast into the outer darkness where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth at the physical death. And then their sould and spirit shall be cast into the fiery pit along with Satan at the completion of the Great White Throne Judgement.

Bill