Racism???

[recurve1]

Bobby Rush proposed that an African-American be appointed to fill Obama's Illinois senate seat. Sounds racist to me, if that were reversed [white appointee] it would be racist also, just shows the hypocricy of a lot of liberals. I was taught growing up the Klan and Black Panther's were racist organizations....... Is'nt Bobby Rush a former Black Panther????

[Dave Holquist]

Your perceptions about Black Panther leader Bobby Rush are spot on. If you listen to him speak sometime, you will come away wondering why anyone would ever vote for Bobby to represent them.

[Sam Dunham]

Two exteme's. If they had an all out war today, who would win?:)

[recurve1]

I geuss Bobby just gets a free pass from the MAIN-STREAM media. What else is new.

[billhuntz]

I'll bet he gets a pass from all media.......

[Heathen]

Two exteme's. If they had an all out war today, who would win?:)

Impossible, the Black Panthers haven't been around in over 30 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party

[Bowcephalus]

While no fan of Moyers I was struck listening to an interview he did last night on PBS. His guest was John McWhorter.

I have lived in the Mississippi Delta all my life and worked well over half that time in Memphis where a single bullet forever cemented in the minds of blacks a seemingly incurable cynicism, and in whites a seemingly incurable if unadmitted feeling of guilt. That is not to say either symptom is completely legitimate. It is impossible from this experience to not have certain insights into issues of race. It however occured to me in a way it has not, before this interview, that for most black people their race is the central identifying factor. Their whole personal identity is race-centered.That is pretty heavy stuff. That does not mean it is unwarranted. What it does mean is that every decision, choice, or political view is necessarily constrained and narrowed. It is an identity that is revered even subconciously to the extent that is has for many become their own personally revered trait.The trait of race. Enshrined in the very fiber of their being and validated and promoted by others both black and white who recognize its power of influence in American society today. It also means that it is virually impossible for non-blacks to ever relate to them on such a deeply personal level.


So if that's where we are, what do we do about it? For me the answer is simple.Treat others as we wish to be treated.That is a foundation to build upon. No doubt offenses will continue to come along but when they do, the greatest enemy of resolving them is to let our basic better nature to civility be pushed aside by this old engrained difference. We do indeed have more in common here in America and infinitely more to gain in common, if we learn to communicate from this perspective. And far too much to lose if we do not. White folks should focus less on identifying with Black folks. We can't.That is an easy way out and cheap salve for the "guilt" complex. We are different when it comes to race.What we can do is agree to some bottom line of common decent behavior that can be built upon.

Anyway, a very interesting read. Here is the transcript.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/02272009/transcript1.html

[Bowcephalus]

"Impossible, the Black Panthers haven't been around in over 30 years."

Not entirely true, Heathen. Did you read your own link? This is from it. Also see this link.
http://www.itsabouttimebpp.com/Chapter_History/Memphis_Chapter_BPP.html

In October 2006, the Black Panther Party held a 40-year reunion in Oakland, California. [42]

In January 2007, a joint California state and Federal task force charged eight men with the 1971 murder of a California police officer.[43] The defendants have been identified as former members of the Black Liberation Army. Two have been linked to the Black Panthers.[44] In 1975 a similar case was dismissed when a judge ruled that police gathered evidence through the use of torture.[45]


[edit] New Black Panther Party
See also: New Black Panther Party
In 1989, a group calling itself the "New Black Panther Party" was formed in Dallas, Texas. Ten years later, the NBPP became home to many former Nation of Islam members when the chairmanship was taken by Khalid Abdul Muhammad.

The Anti-Defamation League has identified the New Black Panthers as a hate group. Members of the original Black Panther Party have insisted that this New Black Panther Party is illegitimate and have strongly objected that there "is no new Black Panther Party".[46]

[Dartwick]

While Bobby Rush doesnt deserve any respect as an opinion giver, that doesnt mean he cant be the blind squirrel finding an acorn.

It more worth discussing why the Senate keeps ending up with no black guys.

[Bowcephalus]

It more worth discussing why the Senate keeps ending up with no black guys. ....Not anymore....;)

[Heathen]

"Impossible, the Black Panthers haven't been around in over 30 years."

Not entirely true, Heathen. Did you read your own link? This is from it. Also see this link.
http://www.itsabouttimebpp.com/Chapter_History/Memphis_Chapter_BPP.html

In October 2006, the Black Panther Party held a 40-year reunion in Oakland, California. [42]

In January 2007, a joint California state and Federal task force charged eight men with the 1971 murder of a California police officer.[43] The defendants have been identified as former members of the Black Liberation Army. Two have been linked to the Black Panthers.[44] In 1975 a similar case was dismissed when a judge ruled that police gathered evidence through the use of torture.[45]


[edit] New Black Panther Party
See also: New Black Panther Party
In 1989, a group calling itself the "New Black Panther Party" was formed in Dallas, Texas. Ten years later, the NBPP became home to many former Nation of Islam members when the chairmanship was taken by Khalid Abdul Muhammad.

The Anti-Defamation League has identified the New Black Panthers as a hate group. Members of the original Black Panther Party have insisted that this New Black Panther Party is illegitimate and have strongly objected that there "is no new Black Panther Party".[46]



Bow,

Thanks, I didn't know this.

[Ronin]

I said that I wasn't going to post on this forum again, but after reading this stuff, I felt I had to comment. I will tell you why at the end.

recurve1 - I will admit when I heard about the call to replace a seat held by man of color with another man of color just because they both were men of color, I felt a little uneasy. Doesn't seem like that should be the deciding issue. However, I also understand why Bobby Rush feels the way he does. The past history of black people having poor representation is there. However, Bobby Rush would not be my first or even fifth choice. In a perfect world people would do the right and fair thing, but we all know that the world isn't perfect. As far as comparing the Klan and the Black Panthers goes, that sounds like a stretch to me. Comparing a group comprised of people that felt disenfranchised and that had a call to arms because they were tired of being brutilized by police with a group with a history of killing, maiming, and surpressing another race for no other reason than to "keep them in their place" is kind of out there in my opinion. I don't know many people would put them in the same racist group. Hate groups, maybe more like it. But I guess that would have depended on your personal beliefs.

Bowcephalus - Without a doubt you are the scariest person I have seen on this site. You put things in such an intelligent way, that if a person couldn't think for himself or had much life experience he would buy into what you were saying.

"I have lived in the Mississippi Delta all my life and worked well over half that time in Memphis."

Where you live explains a lot in how you see race. I was born in the delta, my mother was born and grew up there, so I have spent a fair amount of time there. But your location does not give you any great insight into race any more than me being in Michigan doesn't give me insight.

"For most black people their race is the central identifying factor. Their whole personal identity is race-centered.That is pretty heavy stuff. That does not mean it is unwarranted. It is an identity that is revered even subconciously to the extent that is has for many become their own personally revered trait.The trait of race. Enshrined in the very fiber of their being and validated and promoted by others both black and white who recognize its power of influence in American society today".

No one can say they speak for a whole race. For example I don't recall electing Al Sharpton to be my spokes person. It is even more insulting when the person is not even a member of your race. You sound typically condensending in saying "What it does mean is that every decision, choice, or political view is necessarily constrained and narrowed." I guess black people can't handle the right to vote yet. Everyone that chooses a side of an issue does it based on their beliefs and life experiences. I know it is hard to believe but not every black person in America has the same beliefs or life experiences. If that was the case every black person would vote the same and there would be no blacks in the republican party. You made it sound like the poor black people are being lead a stray because they vote different from what you think they should.

"White folks should focus less on identifying with Black folks. We can't.That is an easy way out and cheap salve for the "guilt" complex. We are different when it comes to race.What we can do is agree to some bottom line of common decent behavior that can be built upon."

Here is the bottom line - when we get to the point where we don't see the races as being different we can do away with trying to identifying with each other. For now white people and black people should try to identify with each other. I can't think of one character trait good or bad that does not exist in all races of Americans.

As proud as we all are to be Americans, the history of race relations in this country has not been pretty. But as bad or good as our American history is, it is our joint history. The healing process has been slow, especially in some areas of the country.

And last, I don't believe anyone defines themselves just by what race they belong to. Saying that black people do what they do is like saying every choice a white person makes is because they are white. Doesn't hold water. I am a man, a husband, a father, an American, black, and ex-Marine, etc. That is the most troubling thing, being recognized as a race instead of an individual. Because of the color of my skin people think I know should act or what I should do.

My five year old son came home last week and said "White people don't like brown people". I asked him where this was coming from and he said that the other 6 kids in his class laugh and make fun of him because he looks different and don't want to play with him. I knew I would have to have the "color" talk with him someday, I just didn't think it would be so soon. We have a long way to go.

[NJWoodsman]

Ronin, I applaud your comments. Well put.

[recurve1]

Ronin I see what your saying, but my point was that there are those of all color who are racist, and I believe that racism is evil just as stealing, rape , abortion and the redistribution of wealth. I remember the black panthers and the klan back in the 60's and they both are in a negative light in my mind. I'l be the first to stand up and say that as a Christian racism is always wrong whether it is Jesse Jackson or the Grand Wizard. I do know that I've seen racism on all fronts and my point is if we're going to be against it we should be consistent , that was all I was trying to say. Because if a white man or what ever color was to make the statement that a seat should be filled with a certain race it would be called racist as it should be. I seen the racism as a small boy here in the south and it was wrong . But I was taught that you treat people the way they should be treated what ever race they may be.

It does get weary to me when I'm being held accountable for what other wicked people have done. So dont think for a moment I'M not sympathetic to black Americans for what they've been through. As far as Bowcephulus, I have never seen a racist post by him, or call someone an "uncle tom". He is very knowledgable in American history. Witch does make it hard for some to debate him. Anyway I dont vote for someone based on color either but Alan Keyes is very knowledgable of our US constitution and I respect him a lot, granted none of us are perfect. God bless you and your family.

[Ronin]

recurve1 - I agree with you that a black, indian, white, anyone can be a racist.

I also sympathize with you as far as being held accountable for past sins committed by others of the white race, because I get myself. Everytime the media shows a crime committed by a black person for some reason it seems to reflect on me because I belong to the same race. I am group in with every black person. I think that it gets lost in the shuffle that there were a whole lot of whites involved in the civil rights movement that have never been recognized for their contributions.

I never called Bowcephalus a racist, I don't know him well enough for that. A racist is one of the lowest forms of humanity in my opinion and for me to call someone that means they have really bottomed out in my eyes. However, I do stand by the comment that he made some condesending remarks. It has also been my experience that history is usually written by the victors or who ever controls the pen.

God bless you and your family as well, especially in these trying times.

[raisins]

Read all the mainstream history you can, then throw in some Howard Zinn to round it out, hearing things from a very different viewpoint :)

Well said, Ronin.

Increasingly, race is being seen as an outmoded concept by biologists using genetic techniques. It is a grouping together of people based upon a few observable exterior traits, no significant biological or genetic differences exist. This isn't to detract from the significance the concept has played in history and in people's lives. It seems appropriate to me to revisit the concept using quantitative techniques. As far as DNA goes, 2 randomly chosen people from different races are about as similar to each other (on average) as are 2 randomly chosen people from the same race.

[recurve1]

Sorry Ronnin, I misunderstood your comment about Bow. He is learned in our history, as far as recorded documented history he has a lot of knowledge of the founding fathers...
Remember "All men are created equal" is a biblical concept. Hitler and Stalin both held to Darwinian veiws. God speed to you.

[raisins]

Sorry Ronnin, I misunderstood your comment about Bow. He is learned in our history, as far as recorded documented history he has a lot of knowledge of the founding fathers...
Remember "All men are created equal" is a biblical concept. Hitler and Stalin both held to Darwinian veiws. God speed to you.

biological darwinism is much different from social darwinism

[recurve1]

Raisins, all Darwihunians dont hold to Hitler and Stalin's or Margaret Sanger's veiw on manity. But most of those types I listed hold to the Darwinian veiw of humanity.

[recurve1]

Man, Raisins I'm sorry I butcherd that post up!

[raisins]

If we do away with all social entitlement programs, is that social darwinism as well?

[recurve1]

No that will be social reponsibility.

[raisins]

No that will be social reponsibility.

Wouldn't it be more personal responsibility?

I believe the hallmark of social darwinism is 'survival of the fittest'.

[recurve1]

Social is a word that simply means the populace as a whole..in other words , we each provide for ourselves and dont look to entitlements from other peoples tax dollars to provide for us. How did we survive before the "Great society" of Lynden Johnson?
Socialism is a whole different ball game and the players just get what's left after the beauracrats get through. But I think you know that already.

[raisins]

Sounds like you are trying to co-opt the word social so that the only word left for anyone to use is socialist.

[recurve1]

Raisins, you gonna have to get a longer fishing line hoss. I come on here to gather info mostly, not to play games. Have a good night.

[Bowcephalus]

Sorry to scare ya Ronin....;)
First of all, it might be helpful, if you did not, to visit the link and read the McWhorter interview as that was the context of my post. How do you view his perceptions?


"But your location does not give you any great insight into race any more than me being in Michigan doesn't give me insight."
That may be true in the limits of your example (Yourself,and me only) but in general most people, myself certainly included, draw their insights from their life experiences. My example goes much deeper than simply "location". It involves life associations within a certain culture. Surely it is not your contention that cultural/racial differences do not exist among Americans and lead to political conflict and different political views....Or is it?

"It is even more insulting when the person is not even a member of your race." So the degree of insult is proportional to racial identity. Hmmmm.

"And last, I don't believe anyone defines themselves just by what race they belong to. Saying that black people do what they do is like saying every choice a white person makes is because they are white." Never said that. I don't recall using the exclusive terms of "just" and "every". If I convinced you that I intended to state that every member of any race fit my perceptions based on my life experience I failed to comunicate. If it is your contention that race is not an identifying factor (Black Panthers, NAACP, United Negro College Fund, B.E.T., Miss Black America) among blacks, we will simply have to agree to disagree.
As stated in my post:"We do indeed have more in common here in America and infinitely more to gain in common, if we learn to communicate from this perspective(the perspective of what we have in common). And far too much to lose if we do not."

As for this, my own statement,"For most black people their race is the central identifying factor. Their whole personal identity is race-centered.That is pretty heavy stuff. That does not mean it is unwarranted. It is an identity that is revered even subconciously to the extent that is has for many become their own personally revered trait.The trait of race., I will readily conceed that you are right in assuming I have a sectional, cultural, bias. Perhaps I might have better said "within the confines of my experience most black people I have interacted with".

Finally, let me say I appreciate you candor and willingness to address me directly Ronin. Feel free to speak your mind and defend your positions here. Also I must say I am endebted to you for your service to our country. Thank you Sir.

[recurve1]

Yes Ronin, I failed to mention that I appreciate your service in the US Marines. Thanks to you and all those who have and are serving.

[raisins]

Raisins, you gonna have to get a longer fishing line hoss. I come on here to gather info mostly, not to play games. Have a good night.

Didn't mean to imply anything, just that once you take social to mean personal, then what word can be used for what I was meaning originally?

[recurve1]

Sorry but maybe I did'nt explain myself. The word social in the context I was using it in means the general populce [ I could be wrong]. The word socialism as I understand it is what we know as goverment redistribution and control of the private sector.

[recurve1]

Dont mean to be rude Raisins. I got to get back to my movie. God bless.

[Bowcephalus]

"I never called Bowcephalus a racist, I don't know him well enough for that. A racist is one of the lowest forms of humanity in my opinion and for me to call someone that means they have really bottomed out in my eyes. However, I do stand by the comment that he made some condesending remarks. It has also been my experience that history is usually written by the victors or who ever controls the pen."
Interesting points. So just how far above the bottom am I?...;)

Speaking of "victors and pens" in the context of "then and now", Google the Fourth Lincoln-Douglas Debate, Lincoln's speech, Sept. 18, 1858, Charleston, Illinois.

[Ronin]

Bowcephalus - The fear from me comes from the danger that I think without hearing someone else's view, people will take your opinion and run with it.

I read Mr. McWhorter interview and as I said before he can't speak for every individual within his race or any other race for that matter.

"That may be true in the limits of your example (Yourself,and me only) but in general most people, myself certainly included, draw their insights from their life experiences. My example goes much deeper than simply "location". It involves life associations within a certain culture. Surely it is not your contention that cultural/racial differences do not exist among Americans and lead to political conflict and different political views....Or is it?"

Associations within what culture? Do mean association in your southern society or the white culture? Surely you don't mean the local black culture. The cultural differences exist in any multicultural society. The problem is when someone would have people believe that the race a person belong to guides his every choice and decision. And from my life experience geographic location and the social climate in the location regarding race adds to that decision factor.

"So the degree of insult is proportional to racial identity. Hmmmm."

And the wheel on the bus go round and round! If someone of the same race can't speak for why the members of his race makes the decisions they do, how can someone that is not even in that race define them? Based on their observations? I can define other races like that and I would be doing them a great dis-service as well. Until you have walked a mile in a man's shoes........

"If it is your contention that race is not an identifying factor (Black Panthers, NAACP, United Negro College Fund, B.E.T., Miss Black America) among blacks, we will simply have to agree to disagree."

All those organizations and events that you have mentioned came about because of one thing - blacks being excluded. Now these organizations and events have become traditional strong holds and many would believe that they are still necessary for black people to have proper representation and forum. There was also a black baseball and basketball league back when blacks were exclude from the majors because of their colors. Money changed that. Someone told me once that I should start a black archery organization. I explain to them that organizations like that spring up because someone feels exclused by the general population and that I did not feel that I was being excluded by the archery community. You mentioned a lot of organizations, but there are also a lot of women organizations out there as well. Do they have to do with cultural differecences? Or were they formed by women that felt that they are not properly represented?

As stated in my post:"We do indeed have more in common here in America and infinitely more to gain in common, if we learn to communicate from this perspective(the perspective of what we have in common). And far too much to lose if we do not."

I agree with you on this, but until race is a non-factor to the average man we will never get there. We have to learn to care about our fellow Americans regardless of race, creed, or color and understand that we are all Americans whether by choice or circumstance. Based on my daily experience, I don't think we are there yet. It is very tiring to meet people and be judged before they know you. And once they get to know you they are surprised you are not what they expected. In this country you should not have to know a person entire background and history to give them respect and courtesy. After you give them that it should be up to the individual to lose it.

I will readily conceed that you are right in assuming I have a sectional, cultural, bias. Perhaps I might have better said "within the confines of my experience most black people I have interacted with".

I can not comment on this point because I don't know the black people you know. I do have a question for you though-Do you actually socialize with any black people? I don't mean work with them or see them at church or see them at the supermarket. I mean actual friends that you hunt with, or break bread with, or go over each other house to watch a game. Most people that I know whether black or white usually form opinion on race based on what they see and never actually get to know anyone from another race. I am not talking about the worst represenatives , God knows there are enough of those in any race, but the actual good people that are out there.

Bowcephalus and recurve1 - No need to thank me for my service. I learned a lot about myself, other people, and why people would give there lives to make this country a better place.

I am climbing off my soapbox now. I have some arrows to make.

Semper Fi.

[Bowcephalus]

Thanks for the reply Ronin. I actually agree with the most important aspects of your reply. Points for me to reflect upon. How's that for scary?...;)...The only arguement would be with insignificant details of your perceptions of me. I have always tended to be an individual. As such I usually judge others the same way. I would however be less than honest in stating that my own perceptions sometime are not influenced negatively by my own personal experiences. Experiences with race, sex,religious, political preference, social status, financial status,workplace status, union status, personal habits, the list goes on and on. My chief interaction with others outside of family happens to be at work and in this context there is quite an opportunity to have the same initial perceptions and reservations based on many things. As I grow older I become more aware that in some cases I am pleasantly suprised and in many I am not. What I have learned is that in spite of all those differences among those many different traits I still have to work from the basis of giving folks the benefit of any doubt. Until they confirm or refute that doubt. I think the experience of being pre-judged to a certain extent by others is certainly not limited to the trait of race. Most folks find their comfort zone tied to their commonality with others. Outward appearance is usually the first thing we naturally use to begin to establish that "commoness".

Admittedly I am quite withdrawn socially so I am afraid I am not really qualified to give you any insight into my social interactions related to race. I avoid crowds and got burned enough by a few folks years ago to learn to limit the closeness of my friendships. I will say that in my other interactions at work things are pretty much balanced out among people I have worked with over the years enough to get to know pretty well.

In closing I think that my main point is that rather than aspiring to some grand mono-racial utopian ideal, in practical terms we would be better served by getting on with treating each other with a sort of practical respect. Grand social aspirations are fun to discuss but the pressing needs of many among us nowadays calls for some real, practical, civility that will allow us to re-establish some basic principles that will move us toward greater success as a nation. Work of substance over words of feelings.

Good luck with those arrows.

[Bowcephalus]

"Society everywhere is in conspiracy against the manhood of every one of its members. The virtue in most request is conformity. Self-reliance is its aversion. It loves not realities and creators, but names and customs."

Emerson

[Sam Dunham]

Hey Ronin, You are amongst friends here! I will break bread with you anytime, and whats more I will say that: I would break necks for you if needed. Marine? Well you are honorable! I am ready, able and willing anytime. RAW!:)

[Ronin]

Sam, let's hope it never comes to breaking necks! LOL. But thank you.

God bless.

[sperki]

Ronin,
Semper Fi, and it's great to see folks posting on here with differing views. I don't usually read the political forums on the archery websites; they're typically find them a little too one-sided for my tastes.
Steve

[Bowcephalus]

More on McWhorter's commentary on race. After hearing John McWhorter's comments on Moyer's show I was compelled to read his book "Losing the Race".I should finish it up this weekend. This guy has some very interesting insights.Insights devloped in a man with extensive education credentials and life experience. Here is some comment on the book from another who found it interesting.

http://www.nationalcenter.org/P21NVMartinMcWhorter803.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_12_32/ai_68148596