Would you fight?

[Sam Dunham]

Lot of Hot Air from the Libbys here! Oh come on I'm just funning you guys, but seriously. If you had to, would you fight? I mean talk is cheap, but if we had to fight CQB or in the field to defend our country would you take up arms and help the one's of us that have the Sergeant York attitude and see the spew? Ok, Us old guys get our medicine (Statins etc.) and have decent equipment to go afield with for speculative thinking, are you ready? I am, and would defend our constitution to the death of many foes until they caught me in the corn field. You guys that would'nt can be the Parleys like the Dummy in Mountain Men with the red stocking cap. Just haveing fun with the put ups or shut ups. Ok, trivia question, what movie had a tall black archer that shot a long Bow? Name it, and the shots.:)

[rusty craine]

hmmm, in my late teens I heard a hell of a fight going on the livingroom. My Dad died when I was 8. I got his 45 long colt that was the most pericous thing I had. Without thinking I went to the closet and picked it up. I lived next door to a gunsmith that took it out to shoot often and I was very good with it.

I walked into the livingroom to see my astranged stepfarther hit my mother in the mouth knocking her to the floor. He set atride her so she couldn't move and was tring to remove her wedding rings off her left hand so he could hock the. I put one 45 long colt round exactly between his shoulder blades. Never thought about it, never thought about the consequence, never ask myself if was right or wrong.......just shot.

rusty

[raisins]

Lot of Hot Air from the Libbys here! Oh come on I'm just funning you guys, but seriously. If you had to, would you fight? I mean talk is cheap, but if we had to fight CQB or in the field to defend our country would you take up arms and help the one's of us that have the Sergeant York attitude and see the spew? Ok, Us old guys get our medicine (Statins etc.) and have decent equipment to go afield with for speculative thinking, are you ready? I am, and would defend our constitution to the death of many foes until they caught me in the corn field. You guys that would'nt can be the Parleys like the Dummy in Mountain Men with the red stocking cap. Just haveing fun with the put ups or shut ups. Ok, trivia question, what movie had a tall black archer that shot a long Bow? Name it, and the shots.:)

Sam you walked into a big one here. You are stating a hypothetical situation and asking us what we would do. Okay, that's fun. But what is more revealing is counting the number of people who support the Iraq War, are of the age to enlist, but decide not to and let others fight in their place while sitting here in the US acting like a tough guy. I know many people do enlist because of this (including your son I believe), but most who support this war do not. I don't enlist because I think Bush's war is pure folly, at least I'm not a hypocrite.

[recurve1]

The Professionals. 1965, Woody Strodes was the actor.

[recurve1]

Oh, Lee Marvin was one of the leading characters.

[SteveGabriel]

It was cool when he strapped sticks of dynamite to several of his arrows!
High FOC with plenty of KE!

[recurve1]

Raisins, my son is flying to California tomorrow[ that is in the us is'nt it?], just kiddin im about as conservative as you can get. But i dont believe the war in Iraq is constitutional, but i disagree for different reasons than the George Clooney types, who believe if we're nice to them they won't want to destroy us. We should have put our focus on afganistan . My son is going back to Iraq for a second tour, i dont agree with someone just because the're a republican. But having an opinion is our right, but what bothers me is people who would not be willing to defend [fight] for our country but they take no thaught for the sacrifice so many have made so they can speak the idiotic ideals[ like hollywood].

[Heathen]

Lot of Hot Air from the Libbys here! Oh come on I'm just funning you guys, but seriously. If you had to, would you fight? I mean talk is cheap, but if we had to fight CQB or in the field to defend our country would you take up arms and help the one's of us that have the Sergeant York attitude and see the spew? Ok, Us old guys get our medicine (Statins etc.) and have decent equipment to go afield with for speculative thinking, are you ready? I am, and would defend our constitution to the death of many foes until they caught me in the corn field. You guys that would'nt can be the Parleys like the Dummy in Mountain Men with the red stocking cap. Just haveing fun with the put ups or shut ups. Ok, trivia question, what movie had a tall black archer that shot a long Bow? Name it, and the shots.:)


Have to ask what is a CQB?

I also think Alvin York was a Democrat.

I'm old but don't take meds. Hell I don't go to doctors. Much cheaper and less agonizing just to go quickly.

[recurve1]

Heathen, Harry Truman was a democrat and he was one of the best presidents we ever had. And he was'nt a neo-con, or liberal either.

[skip]

Lot of Hot Air from the Libbys here! Oh come on I'm just funning you guys, but seriously. If you had to, would you fight? I mean talk is cheap, but if we had to fight CQB or in the field to defend our country would you take up arms and help the one's of us that have the Sergeant York attitude and see the spew? Ok, Us old guys get our medicine (Statins etc.) and have decent equipment to go afield with for speculative thinking, are you ready? I am, and would defend our constitution to the death of many foes until they caught me in the corn field. You guys that would'nt can be the Parleys like the Dummy in Mountain Men with the red stocking cap. Just haveing fun with the put ups or shut ups. Ok, trivia question, what movie had a tall black archer that shot a long Bow? Name it, and the shots.:)

Sam, Apparently Alvin york was a conservative,and tried to pull the Christian card to stay out of the war. So, what kind of Sergeant York attitude would that be? Can't We all just get along. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_York

[recurve1]

The reason why York tryed to get out of the war was because he thaught it was wrong to kill, but when he realized later that the bible was refering to MURDER , not the taking of life in warefare, then he assumed his position as a soldier.

[Redbow]

WOOD STROUD
The professionals.

[Redbow]

But the real star of that movie was Burt Lancaster.
Good call recurve.

[Redbow]

LOL QBC
You guys are starting to sound like the postman at the end of the bar in Cheers.

QBC indeed lol.

[Wingman]

Sam-

You might be surprised by some of us Libbys. I'd have no problems dying for my convictions....killing for them though is a very different matter and would require a very imminent threat.

Ken

[Bowcephalus]

"You might be surprised by some of us Libbys. I'd have no problems dying for my convictions....killing for them though is a very different matter......" ......Nope Wing, I'd say you just articulated the conservative perception of the neo-liberals quite well.....

[Wingman]

"You might be surprised by some of us Libbys. I'd have no problems dying for my convictions....killing for them though is a very different matter......" ......Nope Wing, I'd say you just articulated the conservative perception of the neo-liberals quite well.....

I'll throw out Gandi, MLK and Jesus as the emoodiment of these Liberal principals...good company I'd say.

[Bowcephalus]

You would do well to do a bit of research on Ghandi and arms, and Jesus and whips before making such assertions......

[Bowcephalus]

...and King in Memphis.........
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/1968/mar/30/king-disappointed-march-hell-try-again-next-week/


Good company indeed.....
http://www.itsabouttimebpp.com/Chapter_History/Memphis_Chapter_BPP.html

[Redbow]

Correction cqb not, qbc thats the shopping channel right lol.

[Wingman]

You would do well to do a bit of research on Ghandi and arms, and Jesus and whips before making such assertions......

General consensus is that accurate translations have Jesus driving the animals out of the temple with the whips, not the people. A nice dramatic touch though.

[Bowcephalus]

LMAO....I wouldn't give 2 cents for your "general concensus".....It wasn't the animals who'd set up shop....Nice try for one out of three though.
From Mark:Then they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who were selling and those who were buying in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves; and he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple. He was teaching and saying, "Is it not written, 'My House shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations'? But you have made it a den of robbers."

From John::"And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise"

[Wingman]

At most, you’re giving an example advocating a measured display of force for dramatic effect, not violence. I think Sam was wondering if Libbs could rise to something more like the Old Testment:

Joshua 10:38-40 (King James Version)

38And Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to Debir; and fought against it:

39And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.

40So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

My question is how many "Christians" could?

[recurve1]

Wingman, please dont take this in a condesending way, but it is NOT against christian principles to defend yourself. It is however wrong to shed innocent blood deliberately. It is totally 2 different issues, murder, and taking a life in warfare and self defense. Jesus was not a pampered pacifist as some would believe. The passage about " turn the other cheek" was refering to the principle of trying to avoid conflict if possible , to do with everyday life.

[recurve1]

But i will say this , according to our constitution we had the right to pursue the talabon after 9/11, but the war in Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq ? We had time to declare war in all those conflicts but we did'nt. I beleive what someone once said " walk softly but carry a big stick" . It is not our place to police the world as we've been doing since Korea. One thing the lib's and neo-con's dont realize is you can't have freedom without sacrifice, if that sacrificed is justified.... dont talk about national security and the do NOTHING about our own borders. If we continue in this neo-con, liberal mindset we will cease to be a soverign nation. We're on a moral downslide for sure, and it's not all one parties fault.

[CarolinaBob]

Truman was a jerk, if had made the Chines and N, Koreas pay the price the world would be a better place, what about the UN? Terrorist would kill both Ghandi and Christ. but Wingman if you want to teach them how to sing maybe we can get you a ticket. Oh yeah not Bush's war, America's war; congress voted on it. US Vet 70-94

[Wingman]

Wingman, please dont take this in a condesending way, but it is NOT against christian principles to defend yourself.

Don't disagree. I think the real questions here are what is self-defense, how imminent does a threat need to be react (or preact) with lethal force, and is preemptive war ever justifiable?

[recurve1]

I agree , war should be to defend your self from a direct danger. But in the case of 9/11 we had to act fast, and we should have put our whole concentration on Ben Laden, till we had taken him out .

[Bowcephalus]

Argue all you want about the course taken and who should've done what to whom. The fact is the attacks were not repeated during W's tenure. We shall see if a different course produces as satisfactory a result.

"....how imminent does a threat need to be react (or preact) with lethal force, and is preemptive war ever justifiable?"

This imminent:

[Wingman]

I agree , war should be to defend your self from a direct danger. But in the case of 9/11 we had to act fast, and we should have put our whole concentration on Ben Laden, till we had taken him out .

Something to keep in mind is that 9/11 was executed by a small group armed with little more than box cutters. While taking out Bin Laden may be important from a retribution persepctive, it will do little to prevent, future attacks. A reality we need to come to terms with is that conventional military power is not effective against these future threats.

[Bowcephalus]

"A reality we need to come to terms with is that conventional military power is not effective against these future threats."
.....You are dead wrong here. Thousands of dead terrorists and no attacks for 7 years are historical reference enough for all but the most partisan of commentators. Very effective if not eternally absolutely so.

In fact the terrorists who made the first attempt (a small group,to use your description) were locked up when 9/11 occured.....So much for half measures. The record is clear, the consequences of historical ignorance and apathy are grave.

[recurve1]

The fact is these people want to destroy Americans PERIOD. They dont care what political party we're affiliated with. The picture ABOVE SHOWS EXACTLY what they want to do to us. But the first thing we should do is secure our borders and stop letting just anybody in our country without a very extensive background check. That is not being prejudice it's using common sense, and the ones in Washington who want to REALLY do something about it get blackballed.

[Wingman]

[/B][/I].....You are dead wrong here. Thousands of dead terrorists and no attacks for 7 years are historical reference enough for all but the most partisan of commentators. Very effective if not eternally absolutely so.

In fact the terrorists who made the first attempt (a small group,to use your description) were locked up when 9/11 occured.....So much for half measures. The record is clear, the consequences of historical ignorance and apathy are grave.

On the topic of historical ignorance, it’s important to remember that Al Qaeda / Bin Laden / Saddam are in large part blow back from our earlier efforts in the Middle-East. Seven years without an attack, which I suspect has more too due with increased intelligence awareness, than direct military intervention, may pale in comparison to the seeds we are sowing.

Again, the 9/11 attacks required about $500,000 and a handful of man to commit. Our response so far has cost, 1 trillion (far more considering the long-term care of the war's veterans), over 5000 US casualties, and 100,000 plus civilian casualties. It’s an unsustainable strategy that according to our own intelligence has done little to reduce Al Qaeda’s strength.

[tuffshot]

Wingy,

Replacing the twin towers, part of the pentegon, 3 commercial jets and all who lost their lives should be included in that cost figure as well.

All is relevent for a question of balance.

[recurve1]

Well , lets just try the liberal approach and be nice them, i'm sure they will leave us along.... you know you could stick a frog in front of some people's face and they would call it a rat, geuss some people just dont WANT to get it. And it really is scarey when you think about where the young people in this country are being educated [ universities of socialist learning] and most of the professors are ultra socialist-communist. God help us.

[Dave Holquist]

On the topic of historical ignorance, it’s important to remember that Al Qaeda / Bin Laden / Saddam are in large part blow back from our earlier efforts in the Middle-East. Seven years without an attack, which I suspect has more too due with increased intelligence awareness, than direct military intervention, may pale in comparison to the seeds we are sowing.

Again, the 9/11 attacks required about $500,000 and a handful of man to commit. Our response so far has cost, 1 trillion (far more considering the long-term care of the war's veterans), over 5000 US casualties, and 100,000 plus civilian casualties. It’s an unsustainable strategy that according to our own intelligence has done little to reduce Al Qaeda’s strength.


Actually, Wing, Muslim terrorism in the Middle East goes back way before the birth of our nation. The Barary pirates kidnapped/held for ransom/enslaved Americans as early as 1784. They were one of our first adversaries as a nation and can probably be credited as being one of the main reasons for the birth of the U.S. Navy. Because of the Muslim's terrorist acts, we fought two wars there in the early 1800's. If we followed the flawed thinking of the liberals, perhaps you would have been born a Muslim in Libya. Darn it, maybe the US armed forces did screw up! LOL

As for AQ's strength, I think most national security experts would disagree with your last statement. But you're right, that is the liberal talking point.

[Lambow]

hmmm, in my late teens I heard a hell of a fight going on the livingroom. My Dad died when I was 8. I got his 45 long colt that was the most pericous thing I had. Without thinking I went to the closet and picked it up. I lived next door to a gunsmith that took it out to shoot often and I was very good with it.

I walked into the livingroom to see my astranged stepfarther hit my mother in the mouth knocking her to the floor. He set atride her so she couldn't move and was tring to remove her wedding rings off her left hand so he could hock the. I put one 45 long colt round exactly between his shoulder blades. Never thought about it, never thought about the consequence, never ask myself if was right or wrong.......just shot.
rusty

He got exactly what he deserved for what he did, and so does any other man that does the same to a woman or child. Appreciate that story, Rusty.

Jesus said: Let him that has no sword, sell his cloak to buy one.

[Sam Dunham]

Hey Rusty you can ride the river with me anytime! You did the right thing and should never worry. Yep I was actually just dragging some of you guys out just see your reaction. The Bible reference do not work at all, why? Well just read the Old test and you will see. Jesus? Well I believe he will be riding a White Horse for Armageddon, Revelations (NewTestament). Man you guys remembered the movie, I'm impressed! Was one of my favorites, especially the Longbow shots.I liked Valdez is comeing also with the Sharps rifle and the long shots and echoes. Yes I would fight Close Quarters Battle or in the field. I refer of course to invasions on our shores. Yes a "Well Regulated Militia" does not refer exclusivly to the national guard. You guys that would'nt would not have made any friends back when our nation first started and a requirement for Arms and a Powder and ball count was mandatory by the Local Militia. Do not forget our past. Do not be fooled that modern times has somehow changed the need to protect. Rust hope you still have the old 45 long Colt. God Bless you Rusty and your non hesitance to defend.

[raisins]

Argue all you want about the course taken and who should've done what to whom. The fact is the attacks were not repeated during W's tenure. We shall see if a different course produces as satisfactory a result.

"....how imminent does a threat need to be react (or preact) with lethal force, and is preemptive war ever justifiable?"

This imminent:

There are tons of things that didn't happen during W's term, is he responsible for all of the things (good and bad) that didn't happen?

[Sam Dunham]

No Raison thats all your fault! Do not feed your dog Raisons they are toxic for dogs. Fact! No onions either.

[billhuntz]

First off I spent 20 years in the miltary ready to fight and die for this country. The folks who gave you the Iraq war had 5 exemptions and a National guard tour during Vietnam. Anyone who was there during the Vietnam war knows that the Air National Guard was a haven for rich kids who's parents had friends in high place to avoid the fighting. And I know there were many honorable folks in the National Guard then and now, the difference is now they are on the front lines in Iraq and Afghanistan and I thank them.

I believe in the death penalty, the second ammendment, small government, and don't like abortion. But the fact that I don't believe the government should legislate morality, ie abortions means many people I know call me a liberal....oh well!!

That said THIS "LIBERAL" WOULD FIGHT. I would not go to Iraq that was a big mistake. But I'd go to Afghanistan/Pakistan which is where the real danger is, if they decide they need mid-50 year old overweight guys!!!

[Sam Dunham]

Sounds good to me Billhuntz, Lets ride the river and tell some stories.