verse 07/26/05

[DaveHawk]

We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. To this end I loabor, struggling with all my energy, which so powerfully works in me. Colossians 1:28-29

The more I read Paul's writing and let the spirit with-in teach me the more I understand my own trails. I know that in me I have gone through allot to bring me to where I am today so I may proclame the Word of God to my unsaved friends. If I apear as a fool I understand what Paul ment when he said, I'm a fool for Christ. The Lord has given us an awesome task to share His Word. Pray for me that I may be bold.

[Garry]

The Lord has given us an awesome task to share His Word.

Dave, are you referring to what some call the great commission - Matthew 28: 19-20 ?

Notice that Jesus was talking directly to his 12 disciples in verse 19-20. Jesus told his disciples "go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost." Many had been already been baptized by John the Baptist and Jesus but Jesus did not tell them to "go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost." He only told his hand picked disciples.

I was taught and sure others have been taught that verse 19-20 (the great commission) applies to all who have accepted Christ as their personal savior but I am no longer sure that is the correct teaching.

I am starting to think these two verses (the great commission) apply to our ministers and preachers, etc... They are the ones who teach and baptize. I share my story with others when asked but I don't teach or baptize anyone.

What do the rest of my TradTalk think about the great commission and who it applies to today?

:help:

[DaveHawk]

Garry, as believers in Christ we are each given gifts to which we are appointed to to deliever the gosple to the unsaved. Their are many gifts preching, baptizing, sowing , caultavating and reaping.
>What I understand Paul to be stressing here is that we are to be encouraging our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Helping them along in their walk and learning as the Lord gives us wisdom as to what we are to say to help them.

[Cato]

First of all, please do not take offense. Your coments are thought provoking.

The idea that these verses were not meant for Christians as a whole is difficult for me to accept. If that were true, you could draw the same conclusion about many of Christs teachings. The Sermon on the Mount might only be applicable to those who heard it. Jesus told Peter and Adrew to "follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men". Jesus told the disciples, "but when they deliver you up, do not become ancious about how or what you will speak....". Jesus chastised the pharisees about their elevating the law over doing good on the Sabbath. And on, and on.

Peter refers to the believer as a Holy Priesthood. The first thing the woman at the well did, was to go and tell the people of her town about Jesus.

We have the Spirit of Christ in us, to grow us in the likeness of Christ. This can only mean that we will be compelled to reach the lost.

Just some quick thoughts. :)

Cato

[Cato]

By the way, the New American says, "go...and make disciples."

I think we miss that sometimes. We should not be satisfied to just see converts, although that is wonderful. We should be comitted to discipleship.

We don't need to just give them fish, we need to help them, throught God's Spirit, to become fishermen.

Cato

[DaveHawk]

Cato, allot of Pauls teaching dealth with uplifting and encougaging the new church. Paul labored for the chuch is widely talked about in the Word. He was a disiple, yes but he had a heart for encouragment.

I'm not sure if we are on the same page. Garry is speeking of the great commision.

[Cato]

Well I guess I'm confused. That's a real surprise. :)

But I understood him to say he is wondering if the great comission is meant for every believer. And I cannot see how is could be otherwise.

If we take the argument that the teaching was only meant for the immediate physical audience (the disciples) then that logic would eliminate quiet a number of Christ's other teachings given in the context of a small number of people (which we believe to be quiet applicable to us), I think.

It just doesn't make sense to me.

Cato

[Swanny]

The last few verses of Mark also reiterate what the verses in Mtt. 28 say. It would seem clear in both these passages that by inference the one who is baptized and taught by one of the 11 would then in turn, baptize and teach those whom he would gospelize...and so forth. From my research of church history, we view the job of 'the pastor' as being the one who soley baptizes whomever repents and believes...even in many cases requiring the recipient to take a 'baptism class' before they will be baptized, but IMO these are the traditions of man, and not the result of clear teaching found in the Scriptures.

Just a cursory reading through the Acts of the Apostles one can see the correlation between the messenger of the Gospel and the one baptised. Whenever one repented and believed the Gospel message, the messenger of the Gospel did the baptizing as soon as possible! I've got three children from the ages of 5 and 12...only the middle one has expressed repentance and faith in Christ and wanted to be baptized (meaning our children have been taught that they will not be recongnized as believers unless their repentace and faith is followed by water baptism). This was this past winter....I then baptized him in a bathtub ASAP. Wouldn't go over well as being 'legit' by any stretch with the current evangelical culture, but hey, we do things a bit differently around here. :) Just our take on the pattern found in Scripture.

As far as Christ telling his disciples certain things that he didn't in the presense of all who believed at that point in time....

He also inaugurated the New Covenant with the Lord's Supper....taking the Passover meal and tweaking it a bit (Mtt. 26/Lk.22). This wasn't done in the presense of all who believed at that time, but rather in the presense of his 11 or 12 disciples (debated whether Judas was actually there). But in I Cor. 11 we see that the Corinthian church was participating in the Lord's Supper with improper motives....Paul's chide wasn't directed to 'the Pastor' or the elders either, but rather, to the entire church body. All were held accountable.

BTW: you won't find support for 'the pastor' to do the 'administering' of the Lord's Supper either. It was part of a full blown fellowship meal in which the whole church participated. I have found that most all of those church historians worth their salt will unanimously agree here. Tradition has taken it from the 'Lord's Supper' to 'the Lord's snack' via Constantine's Edict of Milan era.

[DaveHawk]

Cato, generaly when I read scripture I read it in the contex for which it is writen. In Colossians chapter 1 vr 2 Paul begins by stating ; To the holy and faithfull brothers in Christ at Colosse:
Paul wrote much of his letters to the church, he saw a great need to futher teach the church the principles of Christ.

[Garry]

The first thing the woman at the well did, was to go and tell the people of her town about Jesus.

Agreed Cato but did this woman go and baptize? Is there any scripture evidence that shows the majority of the early believer’s executed the command given by Jesus to his disciples in verse 19 & 20 after Jesus ascended to heaven? Did the early believers go and teach and baptize?

I also think there is a difference between telling someone what Jesus did for them and teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

It appears to me that the use of the word you is referring to the disciples.

If verses 19 & 20 apply to all Christians, then believers need to start teaching and baptizing does it not?

Cato and others please believe me when I say I am also not trying to be argumentative; I am only trying to learn and know the truth. Like Swanny says there are tradition(s) in the church today; some of which do not seem to be grounded in the word of God.

It still amazes me that after a couple thousand years Christians are still not sure what the truth is concerning the meaning of many of the scriptures in the bible. It seems like there are as many opinions as there are believers. Does anyone but me ever wonder why this is?

[DaveHawk]

Dave, are you referring to what some call the great commission - Matthew 28: 19-20 ?

Garry, I posted Pauls observation as to what we are believers are to practice as Christians amoung one another. The great commision is a whole different topic.
I want to address the batisum topic but no time now.

[Swanny]

18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Hi Garry, It seems verse 20 speaks directly to what your question pertains to: Christ commands the 11 disciples to go and Gospelize not just one ethnic group but all of them, those who do not reject the Christ, but respond in repentence and faith are to be discipled, or taught what Christ has commanded them (the 11)...this includes what He just got done commanding in vs. 19/20 about baptism and teaching in order that the process of discipleship continues till the fulfillment of Christ's kingdom comes. We're all (male and female) ambassadors for Christ (II Cor.5:20).

How this plays out in our individual lives may take on a different flavor in each person. Not all have the same gifts (Rom 12, I Cor. 12), not all are pastor-teachers or evangelists (Eph 4). But, from my observations, since everyone who is a participant in the New Covenant is a priest....they all have something to offer....both on the vertical relationship (to God) and on the horizontal relationship (responsibility to their fellow believer in Christ).

Some priests in the household of faith have the specific gift of teaching (James 3:1, also a qualification of an elder...I Tim 3:2), but all priests are expected to be able to teach one another in a general sense....see Heb.5:11-13, also the expectations of women in Titus2:2-4. Paul's frequent urging believers to admonish and encourage one another assumes the responsibility of all in the body of a local church to be able to handle the Word accurately, it was not the sole responsibilty of 'the pastor' to study for 40 hours a week and then bring a monologue to a flock every Sunday and spoon feed them.

When the early churched gathered....they dialogued and fleshed out the 50 some one-another commands Paul gave, which obviously included some more formal teaching at times, for sure. Certainly, overseers/elders/bishops (whatever you want to call them) have key roles in equipping the body....but it is for the purpose of the body to 'do the work of the ministry' or 'for the works of service' as in Eph. 4:12. Today, 'the pastor' is typically doing the work of the ministry, not the entire body!

So, as far as I see (that may not be very far :) ) , nowhere does Scripture assign the responsibility of baptism to those in leadership functions. Though I would have a problem squaring a woman elder (based on the clear requirements of an elder that Paul gave to Timothy and Titus), I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with a woman baptizing someone who repented and believed in light of her Gospelizing attempts...if she wants to assign that responsibility to a male, so as not to become immodest in her role as a woman in the eyes of others....that's fine and dandy with me.

Like you, I've always been amazed at the plethora of interpretations and understandings floating out there. At some point in my life, it was a discouragement to me and I sadly used that fact too often as an excuse not to labor in studying, but we all are expected to be 'workman that need not to be ashamed, but rightly handles the Truth'.

No one's got all the answers, that's for sure, and when it comes down to it, some things we can be more confident on (the Gospel message, who Christ is etc.), some things less confident, but all things in our own individual perspective are basically OUR BEST GUESS! We're all in need of God's CONSTANT transforming grace to renew our minds! :2cents:

[Garry]

Like you, I've always been amazed at the plethora of interpretations and understandings floating out there. At some point in my life, it was a discouragement to me and I sadly used that fact too often as an excuse not to labor in studying, but we all are expected to be 'workman that need not to be ashamed, but rightly handles the Truth'.

Ken, it's still discouraging to me but I continue to try to learn what the Truth is about each verse in the Bible but I honestly am beginning to think that man and even Christians are not supposed to know the Truth otherwise, I have no explanation for the many different interpretations by Christians.

We're all in need of God's transforming grace to renew our minds! Amen.

[Swanny]

Ken, it's still discouraging to me but I continue to try to learn what the Truth is about each verse in the Bible but I honestly am beginning to think that man and even Christians are not supposed to know the Truth otherwise, I have no explanation for the many different interpretations by Christians.

Garry, I pray that Christ's prayer to the Father in John 17:14-19 would be an encouragement to you in your labors to understand Christ and His Truth!

14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify[a] them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Since Christ and the Father are one....His requests are guaranteed to be upheld by the Father by virtue of His Crosswork! Don't lose hope! Keep the faith....read the letter of Jude again:

1Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,
To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by[a] Jesus Christ:

2Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

The sin and doom of Godless men
3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.

11Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

12These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

A call to persevere
17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

Doxology
24To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Footnotes:


Jude 1:1 Or for; or in
Jude 1:4 Or men who were marked out for condemnation
Jude 1:5 Some early manuscripts Jesus

[Garry]

Ken,

Thanks for your last post. There are many good things in your post to think about however, they still don't answer the question:

Why are there so many different interpretations of the same verse(s) of scripture by Christians unless God did not want us to know the true meaning of the verse(s)?

What's your answer to this question?

I am beginning to think we spend too much time discussing and trying to figure out the true meaning of each verse in the bible. Maybe the only thing that's really matters are God’s commandments to love the Lord your God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind and to love thy neighbor as yourself and accepting Jesus as our personal Lord and putting all of our trust in Jesus to save us from eternal hell.

[Cato]

God wants a heart given over to Him, one that yearns to know Him. Jesus said, Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness.

I tend to think that He wants to see if we really want it; if we really yearn to please Him with our lives. As we grow in that way, He reveals more and more of Himself. Why did Jesus give parables that many did not understand? They weren't ready to receive; they were seeking miracles, and not holiness and righteousness. As we begin to really try to die to self, and yearn for God to have our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, He reveals Himself to us in greater ways.

Why are there so many interpretations? Well I'm not sure there are that many, but obviously there are often differing takes. I think is is often becasue man is trying to intellectually approach God's Word, instead of allowing His Spirit to teach.

Good discussion.
Cato

[DaveHawk]

Garry , in breaking down the scriptures and conversing about them we are following one of the Lord commandments. "Study to show yourself approved"

Cato, Good statement "I think it is often becasue man is trying to intellectually approach God's Word, instead of allowing His Spirit to teach."

When we leave the milk and begin to eat the meat of the Word and begin talking about it, their is always a different understanding by each indiviual. I can read one verse one day and the Holy Spirit show me one understanding and the next week read it again and He shows me a different understanding that would apply to where I am in the Lord. With each responabilitie you are given as you go through your walk with the Lord in life he shows you or should I say opens your eyes to more of Him depending on what you can handle.

I am amaized at the wisdom of my Pastor. He is a few years younger than I but over the 18 years I have known him he has grown in wisdom and knowledge. He has talken a verse and delivered it in different ways over the years. When he speeks on topic he relays the scriptures in a way that the older belivers in the Word and the younger and intermedeate all receive it's meaning . Delivering it a few different ways.

Your growth in the Lord dosn't stop at the 1st understanding , it grows and occupies your entire being and your every gift and talent, your relationships which each one is at a different stage. Exceptance of this gift called understanding allows you to grow in wisdom and knowledge of the Lord.

[Swanny]

Hi Garry, Your question seems to assume or imply that God didn't want his followers to know the truth, which is rationalized from the reality that not everyone agrees on what His Word means. You also might be implying by using the term 'Christians' that all who call themselves one are indeed, genuine followers of Christ. But Scripture clearly says otherwise in more than one place.

Take Jn. 8:31,32 for example: "To the Jews who had believed in him, Jesus said, 'If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will [not...maybe/quite possibly, but a certainty/guaranteed] set you free'".

Notice how John identifies the people Christ was speaking to....'who had [past tense] believed in him'. These Jews would have called themselves followers of Christ since they showed an initial desire to 'believe' or 'follow' or 'accept', but Christ (knowing the true status of their hearts...see Jn. 6:60-66) further explained what it really meant to be one of his disciples or followers: If you continued to obey what he commanded....something so often reiterated through John's Gospel (14:15,23). Christ would not consider any person one of his followers who did not have a present, ongoing faith....a faith that so intently understood and saw the glorious Righteousness offered in His Gospel that it constantly led to repentance and faith. If you believed 'back then', but don't believe 'now'....you are without hope and lost...and need to repent and believe! This is what it means to be a slave of Christ....a slave constantly does what his master requires. Those who are Christ's slaves are genuinely interested the rest of their lives in how they can please him....throughout Scripture this is portrayed mainly as laying off sin (via repentance), putting it aside, and putting on Christ (via faith....in obeying how he commands us to live). This is what it means to be 'set free'....free FROM a life characterized by sinful rebellion that only leads to more bondage, and free UNTO a life that is a pleasing aroma to God. But this requires us to know and understand (ye shall 'know' the truth) exactly what pleases him (and the [knowledge of the] Truth shall set you free...Jn. 17:2,3).

This cannot be possible unless one undergoes a Divine Open Heart Surgery...where the Chief Physician and Surgeon (there's only One in the world) removes the rebellious stoney, unresponsive heart (given to us by the imputation of Adam's sin via our physical birth) and transplants a NEW HEART, a heart of responsive flesh, purchased and secured for us via Christ's death and resurrection (foretold in Ezekial 36:25-26), and energized, not by a battery that needs to be replaced, but by the Spirit of the Living God (Rom 8:1-17). Because of the deceitfulness of sin and the makeup of a stoney heart constanly operating in a rebellious, mutinous state (thus preventing the patient from knowing when or even wanting to undergo surgery, Jer. 17:9), the exact time of operation is always scheduled by the Physician (Jn. 3:6-8, Eph 2:1-4). Surgeries are always scheduled way in advance and are never late! (Gal.3:13-24, Eph.1:4-10). The cost of this surgery is and always will be unprecedented....it is the most costly operation ever known....it took the murderous death of Christ...the only Righteous One able to secure it's success! New hearts always desire new things...the surgery will not/cannot be a failure (Rms.11:29)! Impossibility or 'plan B' are not operating room terminology. Rentance and faith in Christ will always be expressing themselves due to the nature of the surgery!

Got sidetracked. Sorry!

Back to the Jews in Jn. 8....if you continue to read further in the passage they insisted they were already righteous in the sight of God...by virtue of their physical lineage in Abraham, but Christ told them otherwise. He said that since they wanted to kill him (vs. 40) they gave evidence they weren't TRUE followers! They were doing the things that their father wanted them to do...they were being slaves to a different master.....they were slaves of the Devil (vs. 44). Their actions denied the reality that exists when the Gospel lays hold on a person's life. One cannot be slaves of two different Masters at the same time...Mtt.6:24.

So I would respond to your question by saying that anyone who truly loves Christ, by virtue of fundamental change of heart that takes place in someone indwelt by the Spirit of God, will pursue to understand how Christ wants them to think and live - in how to put off sin and live and think in a way that pleases God. Sin is basically delighting one's self in anything that displeases God, while on the other hand, righteousness is delighting one's self in what pleases God. Certainly, they won't do this perfectly (they will sin and sometimes rather severly), but this will be the defining characteristic in their lives (which is what I John is all about). In order to love God and love our neighbor, one must grow in their understanding of God's perfect will as revealed in his Word (Rom. 15:13-16, II Tim. 3:16,17) and treat them in a manner that is in accordance with it. IMO, it would help to start thinking of what it means to be a Christian differently in order to see the necessity of understanding and wrestling with Christ's truth found in the Scriptures. I'd recommend reading through this article: http://www.ids.org/pdf/love.pdf

On a side note (I think I have liberty to say this in an absolute sense): there is only one true interpretation (meaning) of what the Spirit of God intended when the Scripture was written (otherwise no one could hold to the position of the infallibilty of God's Word), but there can be multiple applications of that one interpretation. The extent at which one arrives at the correct meaning will govern his ability to rightly apply it, and the extent to which it is rightly applied will govern one's ability to rightly understand and live it. Obviously this is a process and is a quest that all who are genuinely in love with Christ are on....as I understand it (thanks to Jonathon Edwards via John Piper) our understanding of who God in Christ is will never cease to increase throughout eternity. This will be a major part of what it means to participate in our inheritance as sons/children of God....inheriting God himself, but never arriving at a point where we are God....we will always be subjects or his creatures....but the knowledge of Him is so vast, it will never be fathomed! We'll always remain in a state of awe and wonder!

Hope that helps in some small way!

[Garry]

On a side note (I think I have liberty to say this in an absolute sense): there is only one true interpretation (meaning) of what the Spirit of God intended when the Scripture was written (otherwise no one could hold to the position of the infallibility of God's Word), but there can be multiple applications of that one interpretation.

Ken, I agree and since there is only one true interpretation why are there still so many different interpretations (not applications) by those who are “genuine followers of Christ”?

I guess I am just thick headed but I really don't understand what's God's purpose was to inspire the writing of the bible in a way that makes it very hard if not impossible for the reader/genuine follower of Christ to understand God’s one true interpretation.

I guess I will just have to wait and ask him when we meet face to face.

[Swanny]

there is only one true interpretation (meaning) of what the Spirit of God intended when the Scripture was written (otherwise no one could hold to the position of the infallibilty of God's Word)

Inerrancy should have been used in place of infallibility.

[DaveHawk]

Swanny, I'm not saying the meaning of the scripture is not the same I'm saying our understanding of scripture deepens when we grow in the Lord and are able to apply it to our lives. The Lord gave it to us as He intended it to be it is man who makes the changes. We are responable to study scripture and know it's applications for our lives.

[Swanny]

Garry, Since sanctification, or growing in our understanding and application of His Truth, is a process...it has to be a fact that our remaining sin (via the FLESH) often prevents us from a true understanding. We still live in a fallen world and are under it's effects till death. Dave and Cato were getting at this. This is all part of the now-and-not yet aspects of salvation (End of Roms. 8)

Certainly, God could have made all of his new-creatures in Christ to have the exact same mindset of Scripture upon completion of their open heart surgeries, but by His design He didn't....furthering the Glories of His Grace in a way that we as mortals just wouldn't have the wisdom to see. The faith that He gives will not doubt (in an ultimate sense) His Wisdom in why He does things the way He chooses to, and will keep looking to Him for more of His Grace which is so necessary for life and godliness in Christ.

Perhaps it forces us who love Christ to be in a constant state of humility and brokeness and dependence before Him...in desperate need of His Wisdom to help us understand. I'm sure there's lots of other perspectives I'm missing here.

[Swanny]

Hi Dave, I wasn't directly responding to what you had mentioned in your post about how one understands Scripture....but thanks for the clarification...sounds like we're on the same page!

[George Tsoukalas]

Garry, see Acts 8:12. They believed Phillip and were baptized. See Acts 16:15 for a baptism as a result of Paul's preaching. See Acts 2:28. I doubt if Peter baptized all 3000 himself. Jawge

[Garry]

George,

Do you think others besides Phillip and Simon were doing the baptizing? Do you think all Christians today should be in the business of baptizing others?

Thanks

[Garry]

Garry, Since sanctification, or growing in our understanding and application of His Truth, is a process...it has to be a fact that our remaining sin (via the FLESH) often prevents us from a true understanding.

Ken, are you saying that since we are all sinners the true meaning of the scriptures is hidden from us by God?

It still puzzles me why God who knows that we are all sinners would allow genuine believers to have a false understanding of scripture. I keep asking myself what's the purpose of allowing genuine believers to share with others (believers and non-believers) something that is not true. I keep asking myself how is one supposed to know if their understanding of scripture is the truth or untruth.

I love the Lord God with all my heart, soul and mind. But as you can see, I do ask a lot of questions and I keep challenging what I and others believe hoping to get to the truth.

[George Tsoukalas]

Hi Garry. I was looking for the reference about the Ethiopian eunich. Was it Phillip who baptized him? Yes, I think there was a lot of baptisms going on. There had to be. Too many for just the apostles to do. I do believe that baptisms were done under the "auspices" of the apostles kind of with their authority if you would. In my church (Greek Orthodox) baptisms are performed by an ordained priest and this priest can trace his "authority" back to an apostle--apostolic succession we call it. My church recognizes any baptism done in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. They do not have to be performed by an Orthodox priest so a convert would not be rebaptized. To answer your question any Orthodox Christian can perform an emergency baptism if the person is a believer, has not been baptized and is dying. This is interesting but not an issue that I am willing to divide over. Jawge

[INHIMWELIVE]

A points .. 1st all the way back to Adam and Eve satan was twisting the word of God.(look up doctrines of devils). 2nd when Christ came the Israelites were expecting him to deliver them with power not for him to be the lamb that saves the world .. Why? Because they looked for what they wanted from the scriptures not the real truth of the scriptures .. Mans pride blinds him time and time again.. The Holy Spirit will not force truth down our throats we are given truth when we are willing to recieve it. Seek and ye shall find knock and the door will be opened to you .. If all men were seeking Gods truth they would find it. The reality is man searches to support his own beliefs ..

[Swanny]

Hi Garry, Scripture indicates that sin (rebellion and refusal to repent) in man suppresses a basic knowledge of God that a) all have intrinsically from conscience (Rom 2:15) b)all can plainly see through God's qualities from his attributes found in his creation (Rom.1:18-32). God gives men over to their sinful desires so that they become so deeply locked in sin they become totally depraved in every aspect of their being...."They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil greed and depravity"....exceedingly sinful and rebellious in mind, will and emotions (read further on in the passage!). The only thing that is able to reverse the pattern of behavior/thinking is the Gospel of Christ....it is the power of God unto salvation (from rebellion to submission...Rom.1:16,17). The gift of salvation is a comprension of what the Gospel means and who Christ is..."For it is by grace [undeserving favor] through faith [in Christ, the object] you have been saved - and this not from yourselves [your own ability to comprehend], it [the comprehension of the Gospel] is the gift [via a new heart] of God [who alone has the power to accomplish the surgery]."

All who are truly saved understand the basics regarding their own sinfulness and unworthiness, what they truly deserve from a Holy Righteous God (eternal wrath), what He has done in the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross and from the grave, and the redemption/peace/forgiveness/rest/knowledge found only in Him...ALL BECAUSE they have a new heart and are indwelt by the same Spirit. Yes, they may reiterate it a little differently, using different wording and phrases, but all have the basic knowledge of Him when they are transformed.

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." I Cor.1:18. Says the same thing as Rom. 1:16 where a comprension of the Gospel is the power of God...in transforming lives via transforming one's mind....that's why it puts salvation in the present ongoing tense here..."being saved"....from ourselves and our own inherent foolish thinking that still remains in our flesh. Yes, the declaration of Christ's righteousness on our account remains forever from the moment we receive new hearts, but our comprehension of our position and responsibilities in the household of faith will not fail to increase....again, it's a process of growth in grace. The fact that our own personal sin keeps us from a faster growth rate should make us more resolved to put it off and put on Christ...Heb. 12:1,2...and run the race set before us!

In talking about understanding the wisdom (which is basically true knowledge in action) of God in the first letter (second chapter) to the Corinthians, Paul says that none of the rulers of this age had the ability to comprehend or understand His Wisdom (else they wouldn't have murdered the Righteous One)...."BUT God has revealed it to us [those who believe and understand the Gospel] by his Spirit [the downpayment we received upon reception of the new heart Eph.1:13,14)]. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God....no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We HAVE NOT received the spirit of the world [which would lead to further confusion and rebellion] but [we have received] the Spirit who is from God, [so] that we MAY UNDERSTAND what God has FREELY given us [in Christ]....the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for the are foolishness to him, and he CANNOT [is unable due to the lack of a new heart] understand them, because they are spiritually discerned [only can be digested and understood with a new heart]...."For who has know the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him? [if Paul stopped here....we all would be left in a state of hopelessness that we couldn't understand God's word, but he didn't...] BUT WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST!"

Perhaps this truth will answer your questions, Garry. I sense you are genuinely concerned about having a correct view of God so that you would better delight yourself in Him. Don't be discouraged...Paul told the Corinthians to be in agreement with one another in thought and behavior...so that there wouldn't be disharmony and strife (I Cor. 1:10). There were tons of problems within the church...some of them rather severe (incest)! But Paul wouldn't instruct them to do something unless he knew they had the ability...which is why he went on to explain what the role of the Spirit is in leading us to understand the Scriptures in chapter 2.

About 6 years ago, I had the insatiable desire to go to seminary because I was struggling with the same issue you are right now....why were there so many interpretations of the same verse? Why were there different view of what it means to believe in Christ? Why were there so many different views of Christ himself? My knee-jerk reaction was thinking that seminary would set me straight and answer my questions, but in reality, after I thought through it and talked to many folks who did go to seminary I decided it would be rather self-serving....after all, I was in the position of choosing which seminary I'd attend....how in the world would I know which perspective I was missing? Long story short...we decided to make contacts with folks from differing perspectives (research via the internet) and traveled some 36k miles all throughout Canada and the States establishing relationships and enjoying the much needed conversation that was missing in our lives in the present church we were attending. We've made a boat load of friends in Christ....yes, they differ in their framework/grid in which they filter the Scripture through, but most all of them are genuinely seeking the Truth...they are in love with the same Christ, they all hold to the same Gospel. That's the most important part. Hope that helps in some small way!

Good point, George, about making the issue of baptism something not to separate fellowship over!

[Garry]

This is interesting but not an issue that I am willing to divide over.

George, please believe me when I tell you I am not trying divide anyone in any of the subjects that we have discussed. I respect everyone's opinions.

I am only trying to find out the true meaning of Mattew 28: 19. Does verse 19 apply to all Christains today or just the clergy? I am trying to find out if I am committing a sin by not making it a practice to teach (different than sharing Christ) and baptize others on a regular (not emergency) basis?

[George Tsoukalas]

Garry, I know and I didn't mean to imply that you did. I just wanted to let you know how I felt about the issue. Sorry for the confusion. I think baptism is the provence of the church (meaning the people of God). In the early church seems that baptism was done under the authority of the church-done with the ok of the apostles in accordance with their wishes by someone they had chosen and so it goes today. No I don't think you need to go around baptizing. I don't see any scripture in the NT where any Tom, Dick and Harry did. :) I do believe we have to share our faith with others. Peter, writing to the church, feels we should be witnessing our faith (1 Peter 3:15-16). Even if you feel the Great Commission was to the Apostles only, they in turn have passed the mantle to the church. That's the way it has always worked. And the beat goes on. Remember that James tell us we have to live our faith (James 2:14-26). That is something I am willing to divide over. :) George