Dumbing down 3D

[CarolinaBob]

At our associatioin meeting adding a "easy" stake at our trad 3D shoots was discussed. Being a working member who has assisted in setting up the targets I have never felt we have had difficult shots. Is it me or do others feel that there are just too many whiners in the trad ranks. Too many who use the "I"m a trad shooter and never take long shots" as an excuse for their lousy shooting. Also discussed having a modern traditional class. Again to appease whiners.

[Papabull]

The trad stakes are already right beside the cub stakes on most targets. What do they want to do; make the trad stakes shorter than the cub stakes?

I don't understand the whining, either. The shoots don't get a whole lot of participation. The competition level is very low. The shooting quality is very low. The "awards" are either cheap or nothing at all. And a whole bunch of guys are happy to tell you they don't care about the competition or even turn in scorecards. And still there are whiners complaining about how unfair it is. I don't understand it, either. If they took their shooting and competition seriously, I'd find it a little more understandable, maybe.

[longbowguy]

Oh man! As if 3D, marked at least, is not dumbed down enough compared to Field Archery.

I do have a suggestion: when bozos suggest this just tell them they are welcome to shoot from the cub stakes and not keep score, if they like. If they should be wuss enough to object to that I believe it would be best to just tell them they need to get better. We should not, not, degrade our ancient sport further just to accomodate them. Our numbers are declining but we would be better off without them. - lbg

[tuffshot]

CarolinaBob,

What is the reprocusion if you don't set another stake.
To some it dumbing down but for some it is accomodating and getting more and more participation. Isn't that the goal. You will not be setting their limitations as they have already set their own. In time they will challenge themselves as their comfort level changes.

The damage has been done for quite some time, so another stake should not be quite as intrusive as one would think. Confidence has to be rebuilt. If the shorter stake can rebuild confidence some will open up more and lead others.
Use the stake as a tool to get more participation, others will assist in gaining their confidence.


:2cents:

[Tom M]

Our club puts out "trad stakes", Bearstate Archers. We try and draw as many shooters as we can to our shoots. At todays prices we need to encourage as many people to come out as we can. If I have to keep my mouth shut about the "girly stakes" then so be it for now.
Most of the 3-d shoots I attend the targets are within 40 yards and less with a target or two out to 50 yards. To me these are not long ranges. I wonder if it is the chance of losing an arrow rather than the range that makes some complain.
:2cents:

Tom in San Diego

[steve morley]

I did hear the same thing for NFAA Field it's a shame this is going on in the USA, in Europe IFAA Field and 3D is growing and shooting 3D's at 60+ yards for Longbows isn't a problem.

At this rate USA wont be able to compete at an international level unless they're going to impose their shooting rules on the rest of the world. I cant see much of a turnout from American Trad shooters at the World Bowhunters in South Dakota in 2009.

Dont let this happen, these people are killing your sport and your enjoyment :smash:

[BigCnyn]

The neo-trad folks around here, just shoot from wherever they feel comfortable, shoot multiple arrows, and move on. I can not prove it, but, then come in, and see the scoreboard and turn in an appropriate score card. Or the next thing outta their mouth is I dont turn in score cards, shoot for fun, and I just hunt with this...?? These folks turn in absurd scores. I get to watch them on a trad only nite at leagues and truly are awful, I mean even in attitude, The I am So Much Better Than You Feel, The trad nite is Fun targets no farther than 23 yards, balloons and such, and take multiple arrows to pop the balloons. I quit going, as the first thing out of the mouth is " I shoot Instinctive", as its a badge of honor, and an excuse for being a not so good shooter. Then I hear that he , (as in me) is cheating must be shooting gap. ?? or the Doinker 8" stabilizer on my metal, riser recurve is illegal in trad, or that the elevated rest is illegal. I am just not in the mood to feel and see, the looks, because I did take the time and continue to work on my shooting. Thanks I feel Better for Venting, Brian

[Free Range]

Slowly, and I mean very slowly I’m coming around. Honestly I don’t hear this type of whining you guys talk about, or if I do it’s not all that noticeable, or maybe I choose to not hear it. But, enough people say it so there must be some truth to it.

As my shooting has improved the length of the targets seem less important to me, in fact I usually shoot 3-D from the compound hunter stakes and once in awhile will shoot some of the bigger targets from the open stakes, and no I don’t turn in my score card. I do feel there needs to be more importance places on accuracy and shooting ability then there seems to be in today’s Traditional movement. But where does this lazi fair attitude towards accuracy come from? There are many books and videos out there about shooting, form, tuning equipment, mind set, plenty of articles in the magazines about shooting. Why is it some many people settle for pie plate groups at 20 yards?

[Desert Archer]

Brian,

Your experience is exactly the same as mine (except for the stabilizer - lol) and your reaction was the same as mine. That is exactly why I quit shooting 3D...well the half hour wait from one arrow to the next had some baring too!

Dave

[longbowguy]

Well, Dave, 3D is better than no game at all if you get your mind right, and carry a chair along for between shots.

Take the NFAA national champs in Redding, California. About a third of the shots are from 60 to 100 yards, pretty challenging. And the hard surfaced Critter Factory targets caused me caused me seven skip offs, but it is a fine and very challenging shoot for a stickbow. Very. Larry Yien took the longbow classification several years ago.

I used my Edge and 500 grain cedars. How did I do? Well, modesty forbids, but it was a pretty good score. - lbg

[steve morley]

I used my Edge and 500 grain cedars. How did I do? Well, modesty forbids, but it was a pretty good score. - lbg

Now dont be modest.......tell me your score :smash:

[tuffshot]

The main thing is participation. Even though they want shorter stakes you can draw in more participants. What is done after the fact is what will make the differance.

Novelties seem to draw a lot of interest and get some to thinking. The two things that seem to draw the most participation is a moving target and the long shot.

Several things come with each novelty. The snap shooter holds longer on the longer distance shot and for some the bow and stance gets more vertical.
The moving target is a snap shooters dream, They will change something everytime they miss until they hit the target. Having a keen eye and approch them and bring to their attention as to which shot made the hit will get them to thinking.

3-D is a tool if someone wants to use it as such to help develope other archers.

[1bjd]

I raced cross country motorcycles for a lot of years. To my way of thinking there is only one winner. The class system that allows for a seperate division for almost everyone just makes for a bunch of hero wanabees. 3D is a fun game and in the end there is only one winner. Run what you brung and look at the results when its over. Compare yourself to anyone you want and enjoy!
JMHO
John

[Rednef]

Thank you lbg. My sentiments exactly!

[longbowguy]

ok, ok, steve- I made 953. I don't know what max possible was but top free style pro compound made 1534. The winner in longbow? Well, modesty forbids.- lbg

[LostHawg]

Dumbing down 3D

Doesn't take much to dumb down 3D. Dumbing up would be more like it...

Give a person 5 minutes and a bucket of minnows and he'll be ridiculing someone on their shooting preferrences, gear or abilities. Maybe the course or the concession...

3D in itself is dumbed down and can only go up. JMNSHO...

[steve morley]

ok, ok, steve- I made 953. I don't know what max possible was but top free style pro compound made 1534. The winner in longbow? Well, modesty forbids.- lbg

Well done :highfive:

[Grizzly]

OK. Set the stakes really close, from a few feet to a max of 20 yards. Now see what happens. I bet you'll only see one or two 300 or better scores for 30/12,10,8,5 scorring.

What's that prove? The hot shots ain't all that hot. But, bet you still hear "them" complain the shots werent long enough!

Turned the tables?

I know the better shooters love the challenge. I also know alot of the hunters like to shoot at the distances they shoot while hunting. I know many of the women would have more fun scoring if they had their own stake a little closer. Then you have the silent majority that come to these shoots to have fun, shoot with friends and others who enjoy the same equipment and sport. Most will shoot any coarse and not complain and still enjoy.

The vocal minority will always cause problems. Try not to let them run the show. Somehow though, they always want to be in charge.

Personally, unless the club saw a majority wanting a new stake, I wouldnt put it out. Instead I'd seek a compromise. Vary the stakes. Come hunting season, cater to the hunters. Maybe set some bonus shots that have unique challenges and distances. When you set long for everyone try to have a backstop area that makes arrows easy to find , or stops them.

Maybe we're shooting all these coarses wrong. I like to shoot one arrow from each stake sometimes. The neatest coarse I shot this year was a broadhead coarse at 2d carbboard targets in front of sandpits with no stakes. I found my self stalking the target, taking shots whenerver I had a clear lane I could slip an arrow through and then shooting again when another shot looked good. Obviously the only score was your enjoyment and what you learned from all those shots with your hunting gear.

[CarolinaBob]

OK.
The vocal minority will always cause problems. Try not to let them run the show. Somehow though, they always want to be in charge.

But not in charge of any work that needs to be done.

[Papabull]

But not in charge of any work that needs to be done.

Isn't THAT the God's honest truth. Lots of people vounteer to complain about the way a shoot was setup but there aren't many hands going in the air when you're trying to get volunteers to help get it done.

[DRT]

Maybe the guys who want the easy stake are just beginners or compound shooters playing with a recurve without a sight for the first time ? It is very intimidating for a guy to shoot a course without a sight or possibly a release when he has been using one for a long time . Probably they already tried a course from the regular stakes and listened to people tell them how they have no business hunting with that bow. Or maybe read a thread about how horrible most trad 3d shooters are ? Can't afford a dozen arrows every shoot ? How much effort or cost would it be to pound in a differant color piece of rebar and call it the "beginners trad stake " , "sissy stake " , "squat when you shoot stake " ect . Give them what they want and take their money . Maybe they will even come back again ?

[Jacko]

I have been amused reading this as on the other side of the world I see the same whingers and complaits as you folks have pointed out , I thought it was an Australian thing - now I 'm troubled as I realise this crap is pandemick, trouble is that ALL people who shoot recurves or longbows over here now seem to get tared with the same brush


One example of the issue at hand - I have been on a bit of a journey in archery lately and have moved away from my selfbows and handplaned arrows onto ILF bows and carbon arrows for my 3d competition . One well meaning mate was so concerned for my traditional archery soul he gave me some beautiful footed custom shafts on condition I come back from the evils of carbon shafts and continue preserving trad archery skills. Nice of him and all but they where the wrong spine .

Another example of the issue here . I recently helped run an annual traditional shoot for my club and one bloke in the primitive bow division sooked to me that it was not fair as the bloke who was winning shot a faster bow than him . His bow had 4 " of stringfollow and was sub 40# , the other fella's had 1" of reflex 55# . He was dead serious and was convinced he was running 3rd because of this [ there was 4 in the division ] . I withdrew from the comp to make sure he got a trophy I was that disgusted [ my bow was also faster than his ] . Some might say I did the wrong thing handing this bloke some of what he wanted but these comps in the end are a good fundraiser for the club and his money is as good as anyone elses . Sort of agree with DRT on his point

I love competition but I do not give a rats about winning only the reaching the GOAL I've set - that goal may be a personnal best score , it could also be to stay in touch with the top shots . I hand back or donate all my trophy's , my name in a newsletter stashed in a draw gathers less dust . Yes I have even not handed in my scorecard - I just love the challenge of 3d and feeling satisfied I shot the best I could in that tournament . Am I a part of the problem being discussed ?

Whats the answer , I don't know how to reach "the them and us dumb devisive trad movement" or even some of the holyier than thou tech shooters - I just want us all to get back to being archers .

regards Jacko

[steve morley]

I've had the pleasure to shoot with some top USA Trad Archers and the ones at the top are truly world class but when you take the sheer number of Archers in the USA and take a pecentage of world class shooters I image the figure would be just terrible.

In Europre the percentage of world class shooters is higher, we have less Archers to draw from but the standard is very high, I'm sure this is because we dont have these issues you have with Archers wanting to dumb down the distances.

I really cant understand how this happened as Bear and Hill were such heros to so many Archers\Bowhunters both shot and practiced long distances.


Like DRT said give them what they want and call it something to shame them into shooting better. lol Maybe we can have a vote for a good name like 'Barn door', 'novice' peg

[Redbow]

Without a doubt the top American 3d ibo shooters have all the ability to shoot head to head with the top Europeans.

One arrow 3 d at 25 yards is a huge pressure game, not at all as easy as it seems on paper.

Americans tend not to shoot field because the compound and 3d sort of took over archery and the game changed.

To shoot field well you first must find a field and these seen to be in short supply.
I belong to a club with a 300 plus membership and I am the only longbow archer to use our full 28 target course , (my own little bit of heaven lol)

Has trad archery been dumbed down in the states, well i would have to say yes.
Shootig a walking Bear target at 12 yards is an insult to me.
Watching a longbow archer put 3 arrows in the spot at 40 yards, well that is archery!

[LostHawg]

It has been my experience that it is the more experienced shooters that run newbs off with their sarcasm and arrogance. For instance, Steve Morley above... Like DRT said give them what they want and call it something to shame them into shooting better. lol Maybe we can have a vote for a good name like 'Barn door', 'novice' peg Yeah, IF they come back...

[Redbow]

We will see just how good Americans are when the world Bowhunter champs comes to south Dakota in 09.

My bet is that a European will take the longbow title
And out of the millions of trad Archers in America we will see my be 10 in total shoot in this tournament

[Redbow]

Lost Hawg if newbs are going to be turned of archery because of a little arrogance and sarcasm, well then for one thing they would not last long in the sport of 3d.
Talk is all part of the fun of 3 d.

[Desert Archer]

...the millions of trad Archers in America...

Not sure where you got that idea but the archery industry says "trad" is maybe 10% of the market. Millions? Seriously doubt if it is even one million.

Dave

[LostHawg]

Well, I don't need that kind of "fun".

I prefer to encourage, rather than discourage people from shooting. The more one shoots, even at 10 yards, the better one becomes. This leads them to stretching their limits and improving even more.

When you belittle someone just because they haven't reached the level of proficiency as you, you're not encouraging them, you're putting the shame to them and they will choose to opt for a more receptive venue.

So, when you cast insults to the less proficient, you're no better than a lifeguard laughing at a drowning swimmer.

[Redbow]

Dave you may well be right, but the number of American archers is far lager than all of Europe
Lost Hawg the moe one shoots at 10 yards you will end up with a good 10 yard shooter.
And there lies the problem with American 3d it is set for about 25 yards and all that the new school trad archers do is practice for that distance.

I understand that most bow kills are under 20 yards and if one wants to practice to those limit's that is fine but it is not archery.
This is very evident when trad shooters try field.
At no time are new Archers made fun off, in 25 years of archery I have never come across such a thing.

[LostHawg]

Well, maybe they just poke fun at the "geek" then...

[steve morley]

It has been my experience that it is the more experienced shooters that run newbs off with their sarcasm and arrogance. For instance, Steve Morley above... Yeah, IF they come back...


LostHawg I'm talking about the experienced minority shooters who wish to dumb down shooting for themselves, not for newbies or to make the sport better.

I've always been willing to help anybody who comes to me wanting to improve and have helped many and at least 7 people win National titles in the UK.

Sorry if I offended you but I do feel that you twisted my words out of context and if my comments upset you why didn't DRT's?

[BigCnyn]

I am going to step in the mud hole. It in my experience, not the "Old Trad Shooters" that are the problem. I mean the guys that have done it for more than 5 years, the ones doing it before it was "COOL", Those guys have gone out of their way to help, around here, It is the "NEO TRAD" that I spoke of before. The ones that picked up the TRAD because the fad was in.. I don't see the old school shooters cause, the NEW KIDS know it all, already. I had and have seen it in action weekly. They bitch and moan cause the stakes are to far, and that the shot was to hard, and that they shoot "Instinctive" !! I asked one Thursday, why don't you settle in to an anchor, or Touch some part of your face consistently? " I SHOOT INSTINCTIVE" was his answer,? The old schoolers that I have around here are a blast to shoot with, they will take your money , target after target, and smile the whole time, and I laugh right along with them, even if its my money.. The NEOS whine,and then make excuses at almost every target.. They are not "TRAD" They are compounders with a crappy excuse...

[Jacko]

In Australia our max range for 3D Trad division is 30 yards . There is no more than 3 or 4 world class archers in Trad division and Recurve unaided combined on the east coast which is the 3d stronghold . If a 3D world championship was held downunder I doubt more than 20 of us would compete in Trad division due to a misplaced attitude that 3D is not our game but the compounders . Yet I know of many really good shots that have dumbed themselves down .

The only form of recurve or longbow shooting that is expanding is the non competitive dumbed down form . It just dawned on me this may be tied into the instant gratification society we live in today . Few want to or have the time in their busy lives to put in the work required to acheive consistency and accuracy with a trad bow let alone the attention spane to get through a day of competition .

Bigcnyn there is more than a few of that sort around here as well . I go out of my way regular to help them and get blown off everytime . What would you know I cop as I try to help with their form and mismatched equipment . I don't agree with the compounders with crappy excuses line though - take out compounders and your right . I have stated before I do not like the them and us attitude that exists - who cares what bow pushes your buttons - we are all archers .

regards Jacko

[BigCnyn]

double post,,,

[tuffshot]

The only form of recurve or longbow shooting that is expanding is the non competitive dumbed down form . It just dawned on me this may be tied into the instant gratification society we live in today . Few want to or have the time in their busy lives to put in the work required to acheive consistency and accuracy with a trad bow let alone the attention spane to get through a day of competition .


regards Jacko

Jacko,

You do have a point with the instant gratification. And it is even more rampant in the bowhunting world as well. With 3D shoots there are those who also want shorter stakes for the compound as well. Some set their limits to 30 to 35 yards at shoots which there is a bowhunter stake and other want the challenge of stakes set out to 50 yards.


To all, Is shooting the bowhunting stake dumbing down compound shooters too?

We can complain about shorter stakes but without getting the paticipation from the segment of trad shooters in for the shoots how is it going to change. anything? Something other than complaing about this topic has to be done. 3D although can be viewed as entertainment it can also be the tool needed to promote archery.

I have also witnessed newer shooters mostly from the compound ranks who do expect more from their shooting and strive for it with their trad equipment. Who do they watch and try to emulate? They watch the winners of the shoot, not the talkers of myth and legend.

If a short stake is wanted then also set a challenge stake too for these guys with extra points. They will try and make up ground with it. It can be used as a tool also. Challenge the beliefs of these guys to make them want to change not just tell them they are wrong.

:2cents:

[Redbow]

LostHawg
It may not have come to your notice, but Archery is the king of geek sports lol.
Look at Rustys shooting specks.
The Morley Dragon Tattoo!
The Redbow black wannabe Ninja shooting outfit
The many lookalike fred bear hat wearers, the list goes on and on.

Part of the attraction of the sport is that we are a bunch of utter Archery Geeks.

[van_fl]

I have to agree somewhat with Redbow and Steve. Where we differ is I think the normal 3D can be a starting place with any type of archery. Once the newcomer has fun at a three 3D shoot and then sees what archers like Redbow or Steve makeing there 50 yard shots. Some of them start think, that with a little work perhaps they can too. Nothing like taking a newcomer to a shoot and letting them see what an archer can do, and at the same time you can help them along during the shoot. I have perverted a few compound shooters into trad archers that way. Along with starting newcomers into challenge of field shoots using trad gear...:2cents:

oh no Am I now a geek?

[Bowcephalus]

Nothing like a narrow, limited view to narrow and limit the experience. I remember the first time I backed up to around 45 yards and hit the 3-d turkey 18 out of 20 times just on a whim. The sound of those wood arrows thumping that foam opened up a whole new world right in my own back yard. No great shooting in and of itself but a great insight into how much fun it can sometimes be to step outside the routine once in a while.....Just for the fun of it.

[Bowcephalus]

Perhaps a re-read of "The Witchery of Archery" is in order.....Methinks I will.

[CarolinaBob]

Since I started this thread I would like to add to it. 1) I have been a "Trad" shooter since the 50s, darn Errol Flynn, so I guess that I know what trad is supposed to be. 2) I rarely turn in a score, I go to have fun. Some of the targets I shoot from way back past the compound stakes, breaking abd losing arrows is part of the fun. 3) I like to setup difficult shots, between trees, over bushes, but the kill zone is always in plain view. 4) Same as golf if you don't want to take the time to learn how to do it right and practise then the reason you suck is you, not the sport. Just my two cents.

[LostHawg]

Sorry guys, I've just had a sour taste for the 3D for a couple years now. I shouldn't have posted...

[steve morley]

Sorry guys, I've just had a sour taste for the 3D for a couple years now. I shouldn't have posted...


Think we've all have had that sour taste, YES I think you should have posted as the idea of these Forum's is to voice different views on these posts.

I hope you understood where I was coming from and thanks for bringing my coments into the open, I can now see to write something with meaning for me and can be totally misunderstood so easily by another person.

Shoot well, shoot straight :)

[Desert Archer]

I've got to stick up for LostHawg. I too have been turned off to 3D by the very nature of the events in my area. Shooting one arrow every 20-30 minutes and standing around the rest of the time shooting the breeze isn't my idea of archery. That's more of a bull session with an occasional archery shot to break the monotony.

One of the clubs I belong to put on a marked 3D Trail shoot last year. It was patterned after the famous Redding Trail shoot. 3D targets were set in front of the field bales so arrow loss was almost eliminated. The distances were similar to a field animal round. Targets were scored 10, 8, 5 with two arrows per target. That meant 20 points/target and there were 28 targets so the scoring was comparable to a field shoot (560 was the possible). The results had some meaning that way and could be compared to your field score. With a shotgun start and squads limited to 4 shooters there was little to no waiting for each target.

This event was the most fun I've ever had at a 3D shoot. No wonder Redding is so popular. I'm looking forward to this year's Trail Shoot.

Dave

[Trillium]

Humm.....

It seems to me that, for the vast majority of traditional folks I see, the whole thing is about having fun, not winning some cheap plastic. The overwhelming majority are never going to shoot international competition, and if the Europeans are having fun shooting at long distance, more power to them. So, why not make it fun for everyone? I still remember struggling with 3D -- missing as often as hitting, feeling self-conscious looking for arrows while others pitched-in to help me, being the only arrow suck in some foam critter's face. Some of the best advice I had was when a guy said, simply, "shoot where you feel comfortable so you can get the feel of the thing first." Don't we want to encourage people to have fun with traditional archery? If you are concerned about cheaters, don't even bother with awards and I bet you won't loose too many participants from your events. Make it fun, and they will be back for the next shoot (and who knows, maybe they will be more confident and shoot from the harder stakes). Besides, in my area (northern Illinois) it doesn't take long for folks to earn a reputation as a solid shooter and a good egg, and isn't respect from your friends and peers the most important thing, anyway?

[steve morley]

Humm.....

Don't we want to encourage people to have fun with traditional archery?

Make it fun, and they will be back for the next shoot (and who knows, maybe they will be more confident and shoot from the harder stakes).



Trillium You have a point and I agree you have to encourage people and have fun also BUT dumbing down to a point where nobody can improve doesn't do anybody any favors.

3D in Europe is harder and also fun, many local shoots are not always set to international level, the normal thing is to have a good mix of targets to both encourage the newer guys and challenge the better shots also.

You cant expect newer Archers to shoot international level and it's important to find the right balance of difficulty but When you watch a good Trad Archer nailing a 3D in the kill at 40, 50 and 60 yards you can't help but be inspired to work harder and shoot the same.

How many Trad Archer are still inspired by the likes of Howard Hills awsome shooting skills.

[sagebrush]

I agree with most of what is being said about shooting 3D.

Believe the stakes should be set closer to the compound stakes. If you feel you can't make the shot, step up, but know it can be done with trad equipment by others. Giving you motivation to improve your game.

As for the time it takes to shoot? In my area i just go early. Most times i set the pace for shooting my game.

Food for thought: Elk hunt all day for one shot and no warm ups. Its what you make it guys.

Lot of Howard Hills out there at ten yards, lets get a few at fifty.

[Oldbear]

Sorry for my 2 cents if it sounds negative but I feel the cause of the problem is obvious. You have target archers where there is no sin for not getting a bullseye every time who also hunt setting up a target course with 3D animals. You have hunters who want and strive for quick clean kills every time coming to a 3D target course set at unrealistic hunting distances. I go to a 3D for simulated hunting. I practice at distance for fun on stumps, balls, whatever. But would not dream of taking a shot at an animal if I truely didn't think I could kill it at that distance. The cause of the problem is simply a target archer wanting to shoot 3D at the same distance and is thus setting the "rules" to his game.

[steve morley]

Maybe have a mix of seperate stakes for people who just want to practice hunting shots at 3D's and dont have to submit score in tourney.

My experience is being able to nail 3D's at 30, 40, 50 and even sometimes 60 yards on a good day makes 10 and 20 yards shots seem so easy.

For the tourney shooter and Bowhunter the biggest factor in both games is confidence, practicing 3D's at all distances in my book should give a Bowhunter more confidence when it comes to the real thing at hunting distances.

When Hunting the only person who knows what goes on is you, maybe some Bowhunters feel self-conscious about 3D tourneys because they worry about being judged about their shooting level.

[Ifish]

3D is target shooting. If you think the target is too far away for you to hit; foam deer are pretty easy to sneak closer to. There is no sin in gut shooting a foam animal.

[longbowguy]

Mr. Morley's last post has given me an idea: In the shooter's meeting before the start the speaker could acknowledge that some hunters may prefer to 'practice hunting shots' and not shoot at a distance they would not use when hunting. Say they are welcome to shoot from whatever distance they wish to practice and that you are glad to have them attend. Ask also that at the end they inform the scorekeepers that they will not be submitting a scorecard so awards will not be delayed.

That way we may gain their company, support and entry fees with no hard feelings. - lbg

[Tom A]

I think the amazing accuracy of compounds these days effects this too. If your shooting a course with 100s's of other people that are all keeping there arrow in a 2 inch x at 40-50 yards almost every shot and never ever missing the whole target. It can be pretty embarrassing for the average trad shooter who is going to be sending arrow after arrow into the dirt at those distances. Our compound shooters around my area are a sight to see. If you drop out of the 10 ring you pretty much just lost. If you wanted trad scores to equal out to there scores then you would have to move them even closer to like 10-15 yards or so.

[Desert Archer]

10 or 15 yards!! Tom, that's a pretty harsh condemnation of trad shooters. I have no love lost for the hard core trad types as they reject me out of hand but I didn't think they were that bad. I figured they could at least hit a rubber Bambi out to 20 yards or so.

Dave

[Ifish]

If the compound guys were shooting from 40-50 yards and the traditional guys were shooting from 10-15 yards, that would be more embarrassing to me than missing the longer shot.

[Dartwick]

Having trad shooters who see themselves as hunters, try to shoot 40, 50 or even 60 yards isnt pushing them to be better.
There is no advantage to learning to judge elevation at those distances.

On the other hand shoots should focus on greater accurracy within ranges where you might shoot an animal.

[Ifish]

Not all trad shooters see themselves as hunters. 3D is nothing more than target archery with odd shaped targets.

[steve morley]

Then it boils down to two things, who is the bigger group and who shouts the loudest, the tourney shooters who just shoot 3D's or the hunters who also happen to shoot 3D's.

My experience in tourneys is it's normally the minority group who shouts and complains the loudest.

[Dartwick]

Im not saying there is anything wrong at all with long range 3d shooting. Im just saying its not a matter of hunters "should" being able to shoot those ranges.

On the other hand the targets do look like animals not simply "odd shapes."

I think its worth noting that 40 years ago ago(the end of the pre-compound era) it was not considered notably unethical to shoot towards animals at ranges where most hunters had little change of killing with one shot.

[SanDuro]

Sounds like a modern tred to shoot one arrow per animal. On one hand targets are expensive and club can save the money. On other hand it is harsh on newcomers to have a one shot. For Old loving longbowmen can be frustrating to shoot a round with 50 percent misses. Hard to judge here. At least here it goes like that.

Steve, wanna stop by and shoot with feeble Czech archers? Sorry if out of topic, no intention to hijack a thread.

San

[Mark Hedges]

San I think most places will let you take a mulligan if you miss, as long as you do not score it.

Dave if you want them to get all 10's then 10 or 15 yards is probably about right (and even then I am sure some people would have some 8s). But at least around here, people shooting the compound bowhunter class are not getting all 10's. Even the open class shooters get a couple of 8's.

Mark

[steve morley]

Steve, wanna stop by and shoot with feeble Czech archers?

San

I would love to shoot with you one day, don't put your Archers down I'm sure Czech archers can hold there own with the best of them.:)

I can shoot nice scores in tourneys most of the time BUT I also have the odd day and can shoot just as bad as everybody else, you can never take Archery for granted because when you think you've got it cracked it bites you in the arse. Think one of the reasons I keep working so hard at this sport. :)

[tuffshot]

3-D is an interactive sport. There is a lot more to going to a shoot other than complain about the distance or set up of the range or even the long waits between targets. Getting started early usually remidies that. Hands on opportunities abound. I can't afford 30 targets to shoot at or have the ideal situation to set them up around the house. There is a wealth of information just from watching some of the participants on the practice range. There may also be an opportunity to shoot a bow that I have never seen much less shot before.

It is amazing how open some people can be so open on the internet but clam up when they are in the ideal situation to learn from others first hand. Bow set ups, accessories, arrows, first hand knowledge, experiance and even those select individuals to avoid. LOL

I usually learn something new with each outing and I find I shoot a lot better after doing it in the field on a 3D course rather than on the net.:)

[Tom A]

10 or 15 yards!! Tom, that's a pretty harsh condemnation of trad shooters. I have no love lost for the hard core trad types as they reject me out of hand but I didn't think they were that bad. I figured they could at least hit a rubber Bambi out to 20 yards or so.

Dave

Dave I am not talking about the hardcore trad types. I am talking about the top 3D competition shooters in the country. The top trad/ru/lb shooters are winning with scores from 320-380's at 25-30 yard max distance on a 40 target course(11,10,8,5 scoring). On the same courses the compounds are shooting from 35-50 yard max and you wont even come close to the top spots in most of the compound classes with out a 400+ score. The compound bow is just that much more accurate when compared to bare bow trad bows.

Dont get me wrong either. I am not trying to justify it or say its wrong. Just give a explanation on why its that way. Personally I will shoot what ever distance I am given and have fun doing it.

[bradd7]

Having trad shooters who see themselves as hunters, try to shoot 40, 50 or even 60 yards isnt pushing them to be better.

I was having fun reading this thread but when this came up, so did another question...lol

Isn't having archers shoot beyond their normal 'one shot one kill effective range', just encouraging those hunters that can't or shouldn't become 'hopers'...IE...take the Hail-Mary shot with the 'hope' that they will kill? Sure there are some great archers that train, and practice thoroughly, that can hit beyond 40' with a trad bow, but they are few and far between...hunters are not.

What say to a rule that only allows those that can win tourneys consistently at 40 yards, be allowed to compete at longer distances, whether or not you keep score, plus a group for those that don't want to keep score - still not allowed to shoot over 40 yards until they have proven themselves capable of handling the bow and arrows at these distances...special groups?

[steve morley]

We have a year long league that has three levels, the first level is for novice Archers, they can shoot from whatever position they feel they can hit but cannot submit a score, the second level is for intermediate shooters they submit score and shoot from the same position as the advanced shooters but they compete only with Archers of similar standard, if they shoot above a certain level they have the option to progress or if they win the intermediate league they can progress to the next advanced level of shooters, if a advanced shooter has lost confidence of form they can drop down to intermediate level.

We also have teams made up of two advanced and one intermediate shooters.

The whole system is geared around allowing Archers to progress at their own pace and still feel they have a chance to be competitive.

No system is perfect because somebody will always try and abuse the system but it seems to me they really try to give Archers the the chance to grow and gain confidence.

[rusty craine]

I have a come back for the "I don't shoot for scores". "Ya know the scores don't have any meaning and don't tell you how good a hunter you are" At that point I pull several dollars in quarters out of my pocket and a 3" circle of rabbit fur and ask them if they would like to shoot fur for money at 20 yds??? LOL they don't except this one handsome lady named Bonnie. I'll shoot ya for quarters, Mister she say. Hey you are on say me.

we stuck up the 3" peice of fur. each shot cost ya a quater. first shot in the fur wins the quateres. backed off to the 20yds line. she was shooting an old Bear Temujin 38@28". She was a nice tall lady and I think drawing ever bit of the 28". shooting in turn and trading first shoots I clean her plow easily for first six shots. I could see the hand writing on the wall though. she was getting her gap down and settle her form down in general. when we got thru she had enough quraters for her lunch.She later commented to me over lunch (i was impressed i bought her and her husband lunch too) she said that was when and where she learened to shoot competition.

She had been getting some college coaching but never put her coaching into play on the 3D range mostly because of their very casual apporach to the competitioin. Whe a smart assed old geezer put it in her face she really wanted to beat me......and she did. :). by the time we were thru we moved the fur to 35 yds and had about 4 dollars in quaters on the bail at the first shot. we even had a couiple of the I don't shoot for scores shooters.

As I recall she came out top shooter over the guys which gave her a real boost. I broke about even I don't remeber how many there were shooting for quraters but I can tell toward the end there were no bad shots left and Ya really had to bear down.

Nobody asked if you were gapping, stringwalking or shooting instinctive. did not complain about class at all but to a man and lady they wanted those quarters :)

rusty -will shoot for money- Craine

[Esquire]

Rusty,

I love that story! That's a classic all the way around. Wish I could have been there losing a few quarters. :)

Mike

[Dartwick]

I was having fun reading this thread but when this came up, so did another question...lol

Isn't having archers shoot beyond their normal 'one shot one kill effective range', just encouraging those hunters that can't or shouldn't become 'hopers'...IE...take the Hail-Mary shot with the 'hope' that they will kill? Sure there are some great archers that train, and practice thoroughly, that can hit beyond 40' with a trad bow, but they are few and far between...hunters are not.

What say to a rule that only allows those that can win tourneys consistently at 40 yards, be allowed to compete at longer distances, whether or not you keep score, plus a group for those that don't want to keep score - still not allowed to shoot over 40 yards until they have proven themselves capable of handling the bow and arrows at these distances...special groups?


That doesnt make sense if you apply common sense.

How many guys can can shoot at 40 yards with a barebow well enough to be ethically shooting at deer? Very few.

Of these few how many dont practice enough all around to realize their limits. Even less.

So now you think everyone should be forced to shoot at these ranges just to teach that tiny minority a lesson?
I dont partake in shoots to be "taught a lesson" much less so some group of screw off can be taught a lesson. I do it for fun and challenge(yes I learn from challenges but some simple lesson like DONT SHHOT DEER AT 50 YARDS are already clear to normal people.).


The majority of bad shots are by people who miss the vitals most time at 40 yards and probably at 30. They take bad shots because they have a defect not because they havent seen their limit.

[rusty craine]

The majority of misses that I know of or about on live deer happened at 20 yds are under.

what has 3D got to do with hunting? 3D ask you to shoot at a foam target with the scoring rings externally placed. this may or may not be where you would shoot the deer in real life. 3D is a shooting competition not a hunting competition. the goal is to be the best shoot not the best hunter. as long as the goal is to be the best shoot they can put that sucker as far out there as they want. I am gonna take my best shot at it......which has nothing to do with what I would do if was in real live.

I sware I have not had one foam target jump the string, come into the shooting lane juiced up, or take a step just the instant I shot. I like to shoot 3D and I love to hunt. I just don't see what one has to do with the other except for the fact i get to use a bow on both of them.


although I love to hunt I hate it that that is all we think about in the USA. i'll bet in the near future there will more archers shooting 3D that don't hunt at all than there are bowhunts shooting 3D that do hunt. The world is cathing up to us. it is getting harder and a great deal more expensive to hunt in the USA. I think we in the USA should learn to shoot straight and enjoy 3D as the sport it is unrealted to bowhunting.

rusty

[steve morley]

enjoy 3D as the sport it is unrealted to bowhunting.

rusty


Rusty good post.

3D tourney shooting is a good sport and can only really related to hunting by the fact that the person shooting has a chance to shoot lots of arrows and become a more confident and proficient Archer, I feel the hunters shouldn't be dictating to everybody else how 3D's are set. I'm sure the tourney shooters can meet the hunters half way and put a percentage of 3D's at hunting distances.

Think some bowhunters just don’t see the benefit of shooting lots of arrows at 3D's set at varying distances in a tourney, they should take it at face value and just enjoy the fact that they're shooting arrows in good company.

3D's are a good tool for Bowhunters at home\club to simulate their hunting shots.

[Steve]

The majority of bad shots are by people who miss the vitals most time at 40 yards and probably at 30.

The rash of "damn, I missed again" posts every fall seem to come mainly from those shooting well under 20 yds. The majority of bad shots I hear about are coming mainly from those who feel trad is about picking the right color cresting for their "arra".

Steve

[bradd7]

I dont partake in shoots to be "taught a lesson" much less so some group of screw off can be taught a lesson.

I wasn't thinking of it this way...to be 'taught a lesson'. I think it is a good way to give a wake-up call to archers from all forms...hunter or target. I think it's a way to 'prove' your abilities, rather than just 'think' we have them, before moving into the next distance category. It is a way to show the archery what his realistic effective range 'should' be...help to ingrain a personal 'hunting' range, as opposed to 'hoping' range.

Aren't there are too many threads about 3D where someone says,"I use it to tune up for the hunting season." Then there are others that do 3D or field strictly as a sport. They train and practice at longer distances but they also 'work' at shooting.

I myself think that encouraging some to shoot outside of their effective range, not only brings frustration and self-doubt but also the possibility of losing people from the sport...or worse, they just go out and hunt with inflated abilities or without 'knowing' their limits.

Sure there are many that can look at a spot and shoot very well. But IMO people shouldn't just say they can do it...they should be confident enough, in their abilities, to prove they can do it consistently - in front of a group of peers. That's the whole reason WHY I personally shoot tournaments and train as hard as I do. I am not there to hit one or two out of 40 targets...but I want my abilities to prove that I try my very best to hit them all in the vitals, when the pressure is on and I can't afford to miss, regardless of where the targets are set up..!

If the tourney directors decide to move the targets further away, I want to be confident enough to 'know' I can hit them before I try. It's me that has the responsibility of ensuring a clean kill on those targets...there is no room for 'hoping' and if I have to prove I can handle my weapon efficiently before I am allowed to move out, and to me, it's no different than having to qualify for the next level of competition.

The lessons come from within...not with a hope or expectation that I 'might' be able to hit the target or whine and complain that the target is too far or too close...that's simply challenge of improving.

After all, if someone can't hit 20 out of 40 targets, within 30 yards, that don't move, on a warm summer day, then how could a hunter expect to hit one moving target from a physically and mentally cold stand-point?

[Dartwick]

I guess I see 3d very very different than some of you.

I think it has a lot of do with hunting.
Hunting weapons shooting at targets that look like animals we hunt.

If I was to make an archery sport from scratch for hunters that could let them practice for hunting - it would look pretty much like 3d archery.


At some point a few of you need to face reality - 3d is about hunting. This is as silly as a marksman saying combat shoots arent practice for shooting people.


EDIT: This may not be why you personally do it. But its the what the sport is design for.

[rusty craine]

Not debating the point but world wide 3d is gaining in popularity in some countrys that don't have hunting at all. Off the top of my head I can name a dozen or so local shooters that shoot 3D and never hunted in their life. I know several top flite 3D shooters that shoot a different rig for 3D competition than they use for hunting.

maybe at the local level 3D in USA is a hunting sport. when IBO, FITA, and Professional shooters get on the line I am not so sure. There it could be an archery competiton espcially when $$$$ are involved.

rusty

[Larry Hatfield]

i think, from shooting one like it last year, that a 3d with a two arrow per target format is the most fun i've had in a while. (since we lost our field range in the sixties).
it was also interesting to watch people shoot two arrows at the target and see how they did in scoring to any kind of potential.
the redding field shoot is proof that there are more than a 1000 people eager to shoot 2 arrows at distances up to 120 yards and really enjoy a great venue. just wish that format was spread across the U.S. a bit!
the one i shot last year was more informal, unmarked, and had some moving targets etc..
i don't understand the mindset that "i only need to hit at 15 yds. and under. it's all about getting close". where i hunt, in the sagebrush and cheat grass, i've had some close shots but i've also killed some animals at 40 yds plus.
hard to hang a treestand when the tallest "tree" is well below your butt!
don't think 3d is all about hunting! if i shoot them like i know how to kill animals i would not score well on most of them.

[rusty craine]

not to belabor the point but guess what country this posting is from

http://www.archery-interchange.com/forum/3d-field-archery-discussion-q/20920-westcott-indoor-3d-shoot-2009-wk-1-a.html

rusty

ps no hunting! i think I read somewhere that BH were illegal there?

[rusty craine]

I don't understand GB competition system. I read on posting that they have levels of skill grouped by some means. At least in some cases I would assume those skill level competed with each other on what you would assume is a level playing field.

It seems if i have the right impression they are not dumbing down their competiton but leveling it. I can see this might prompt an archer to want o increase their skill level.

I remember from yrs past that NRA pistol competition was divided into skiil groups. It made sense to me then. There was no way you could compete against the military guys. they shot more rounds in a week than I could afford all yr.

I do understand the feeling when you shoot your best and get beat by a score over 50% higher than you shot. When you start talking around you find out the winner shoots 20,000 arrows a yr. the next question ya ask is does he have a job? :) LOL

level the playing field is not a bad idea i think. I don't think that leveling the field by moving the shooting positions is the right way to do it. Alas it could be the only practical way to do it. if 3D is a hunting sport it won't matter either way. Hunting as we know it will not be here 3 more genetrations I bet.

rusty

[steve morley]

I don't understand GB competition system. I read on posting that they have levels of skill grouped by some means. At least in some cases I would assume those skill level competed with each other on what you would assume is a level playing field.

It seems if i have the right impression they are not dumbing down their competiton but leveling it. I can see this might prompt an archer to want o increase their skill level.

rusty

The Skill level groups are in the uk's EFAA (as in all IFAA countries) class A, B and C,

The most popular association in the UK is the NFAS, unmarked paper and 3D tourneys are all from same pegs and that is everybody compounds to ELB's but they have a good mix of distances to give all abilities an enjoyable days shooting. 3D's can be 10 yards to 100yards but on average they tend to shoot most targets within 40 yards.

The NFAS has started to build it's coaching up and insist all new archers pass a shooting proficiency test before entering any tourneys, they can shoot at club level untill they pass the test. With this system by the time they get to shoot tourneys their level of shooting is pretty reasonable.

I understand the NFAA dumbed down it's Field and Hunter distances to encourage more Trad shooters in, I didnt think this was such a great idea as your top guys are now put at a disadvantage when shooting international tourneys, I would like to know if these shorter distances are still in place and if NFAA membership increased in the Trad ranks?

[Desert Archer]

I understand the NFAA dumbed down it's Field and Hunter distances to encourage more Trad shooters in, I didnt think this was such a great idea as your top guys are now put at a disadvantage when shooting international tourneys, I would like to know if these shorter distances are still in place and if NFAA membership increased in the Trad ranks?

Steve, NFAA never did that. The Field, Hunter and Animal Rounds are exactly what they have always been. I believe it was the Pennsylvania Archery Association that went to a field course with a 50 yard maximum, supposedly for the trad shooters. To me that was indeed dumbing down field but when I said so on these boards I got raked over the coals by one or two PA trad shooters.

NFAA is still almost a waste land when it comes to traditional shooters through out the rest of the country. I have no idea how the shortening trick worked in PA.

Dave

[Dartwick]

I think part of whats annoying here about how you guys present this is the word "dumbing down."
The only definition i can find for "dumbed down" is "to make condecendingly simple." And indeed in all my years of using the phrase thats how i always understood it.

Thats not what happening here. The event is being modified to fit the shooters. Not because they are incompetent but because the existing event had requirements they were not interested in nor did they find useful.

As I explained above there is no practical reason for barebow hunters to hunt at those ranges. And barebow hunters are the trad shooters coming to most of these #D events where they are making changes.

Im not saying you have to enjoy the changes - they may well not be your interestes as target shooters - so by all means say you dont like it. But stop being condcending and dishonest as you represent why these changes are made.



The issues with using trad gear at over 50 yards are very different from the issues of lazy trad bow hunter/shooters who happy with crappy accuracy.

[steve morley]

I think part of whats annoying here about how you guys present this is the word "dumbing down."
The only definition i can find for "dumbed down" is "to make condecendingly simple." And indeed in all my years of using the phrase thats how i always understood

Dartwick I dont think any offence is meant, my meaning of 'Dumbing down' is that the targets become so easy you dont have to think about terrain or distance, even form doesn't have to be that great for -20 yard shots with the right weight bow.

I enjoy a tourney where the course builder makes me work for my score and I dont mind if he puts a real sneaky shot where he catches me out, it's all part of the enjoyment. Think if I was to shoot 20 yards and under at every target I might end up in a coma.

[Dartwick]

Well I keep seeing you guys says 20 yards max when you talk down about it. But when I see any of the details of what your actually complaining about its 40 or 50 yards .

I agree if your only willing to test yourself up 20 yards you any normal barebow shooter is holding himself back and not testing what should be his limits.

On the other hand the majority of barebow hunters really are wasting their time trying to learn to shoot at 50 yards plus.
Yes they could do it but its a pursuit which creates it own goal.
If you happen to enjoy it thats cool.
But these changes are being made for a group that is seeking an archery activity that relates to hunting.

[Desert Archer]

On the other hand the majority of barebow hunters really are wasting their time trying to learn to shoot at 50 yards plus.

So all those longbow and early recurve shooters who founded the NFAA and came up with the Field, Hunter and Animal rounds with lots of shooting over 20, even 50 yards were wasting their time? Interesting in as much as they claim they developed field archery as practice for hunting. Oh, and Howard Hill, Ben Pearson, Fed Bear, Jack Howard and all the other hunting archers of that era who regularly shot field for practice were wasting their time? Sorry Dartwick but a 25 yard maximum distance sure looks like dumbing down to me.

Dave

[Dartwick]

Ok now im a bit miffed.

You clearly didnt even read the whole post you quoted(and it wasnt long.)

[steve morley]

Ok now im a bit miffed.

You clearly didnt even read the whole post you quoted(and it wasnt long.)

Dartwick I took your comment the same way as Desert Archer and I let it go, sometimes what we write and think doesn't always come across the same way to others on these forums.

You have some good and valid points on this topic and so do we, lets just agree to disagree before it gets out of hand.

[Dartwick]

It worth noting that back in the day field archery was invented it wasnt considered unethical to shoot at ranges where you were basically throwing the dice.
If you read Fred Bear accounts of hunting he really threw some arrows and so did most the other famous guys he hunted with.

I guess it could be cool to shoot at grouse or rabbits at those ranges but a 50 plus yard barebow shot at a deer isnt right. So for a hunter its a waste of time to shoot at 3D deer that far out.

Now if you just enjoy the long range shooting then it isnt wasting your time. But to act like hunters now are avoiding something the should be doing is wrong.

[rusty craine]

Dartwick - I think I see mine and your basic difference. I would still be shooting my bow if bowhunting did not exist. To me archery is like golf. A skill set I want to improve on seperate from any "use" of the skill set as in hunting.

Now the question for me is (and it is a personal question not directed toward anyone else). If I could win a national archery championship or kill a world class elk.....which would I select to do??????

the very fact that I can ask myself that question leads me to believe I am an archer. :)

rusty

[Dartwick]

Myself I enjoy archery in its own right, but I came into the sport from hunting and I enjoy it from that angle.

It think archery at distance is pretty cool, but i dont like the attitude dismissing people as unreasonable because they have no use for shooting at 50 or 60 yards.
I think thats a great deal different from dismissing people who are happy to be crappy shots at any range.

[Larry Hatfield]

pre-internet, i never heard discussions like this at any local shoot, never thought of archery as a close range sport, never thought long range accuracy or knowing my point on distance would hurt my hunting success, never asked a stranger what distance i should be shooting, how heavy my bow or arrow should be, or what kind of bow i should shoot, or figured out the ke or momentum of an arrow/bow combination.
i have never failed to kill an animal i wanted to kill so i probably will never do those things in the future.
of course i never knew that seeing the arrow was a mortal sin either, so their goes my credibility.

[Desert Archer]

Larry, you are most always a breath of fresh air. Thank you for your insight, your experience and your wisdom!

Dave

[rusty craine]

Besides that ya don't need to dumb down 3D for me I am already dumb enough. One time we were at the Canadian River in the panhandle of Texas hunting on a private ranch. We were hutning jackl rabbits (a long range hunting sport). One of our group had center punched a jack rabbit at about 60yds. beautiful shot. we were all gathered around the jack rabbit proclaiming what a great shot, when one of the guys noticed a dead cow about 100 yds away. Someone suggested we "lag" our arrows at the carcass. furtherest arrow out had to pay for lunch. on my shot I watched my arrow disappear into the blotted carcass. what a shot!

on inspection my arrow had completely disappeared into the carcass. the boyz said if they don't get to see the arrow it was a miss. I had to pay for lunch :) for not even I was dumb enough to go in after the arrow.

ya don't need to dumb up archery for me I already do the dumbest things.

rusty

[Dave Holquist]

The way I look at the trad 3d stake is that you can always shoot from closer - just have fun and don't turn in a scorecard. Now, if the trad stake is too close for you, just step back to wherever you are comfortable and show the rest of us how it's done! :youdaman: :2cents:

[Steve]

Larry - another pearl

Thanks
Steve

[1bjd]

What Steve said! Thanks for your wonderful in site Larry! I consider myself as a hunter, and an archer. I have been addicted to the flight of the arrow for a very long time.
Could I no longer shoot a bow I would continue to hunt. Could I no longer hunt I would still shoot my bows.
Thankfully I can still do both. I continue to try to improve both skills I owe that to myself and the animals I pursue.
Long distance shooting practice is very important. Not to be able to shoot at game at those ranges but to gauge your skill. Errors in equipment tune and form show up much more at 50 yards than at 15.
Bow tune and set up is a very big part of successful shooting.
John

[Desert Archer]

Long distance shooting practice is very important. Not to be able to shoot at game at those ranges but to gauge your skill. Errors in equipment tune and form show up much more at 50 yards than at 15.

Well said John, and it is the key point that so many "traditional" shooters, and Dartwick in this thread, don't seem to get. Learning to shoot at 50 yards or more is not so you can hunt at that range, it's so you will know your equipment better and understand what it takes to shoot at that distance. It will make you and even better shot at 20 yards.

Dave

[Steve]

Learning to shoot at 50 yards or more is not so you can hunt at that range, it's so you will know your equipment better and understand what it takes to shoot at that distance. It will make you and even better shot at 20 yards.

BINGO!!!!!!!!

Steve

[steve morley]

Learning to shoot at 50 yards or more is not so you can hunt at that range, it's so you will know your equipment better and understand what it takes to shoot at that distance. It will make you and even better shot at 20 yards.

Dave

This little gem of knowledge is what our past archery hero’s like Hill and Bear knew all along and what most good tourney archers today also know and understand.

[Tom A]

If 30 yard max 3D is considered dumbed down then does that make a 20 yard 300 round even dumber? 3D has evolved to where it is for many reasons. Mostly its that way because the participants want it that way.

Right now there are plenty of different types of archery sports out there. So if a person wants to shoot long distance they can go to a field shoot. Or they can go to a 3D competition for closer shots or shoot a 300 round for even closer shots. I like having the choice and mixture of archery events to pick from. They all have my support.

[steve morley]

Tom A;I think the argument is about some Archers wanting to bring the stakes even closer than they already are.

But you have some good points about archers having choice to shoot either Field or 3D or indoors :)

[Steve]

The 20 yd 300 round evolved to being primarily an indoor event which carries space limitations. I doubt that the distance was lowered.

3D began with the longer distances carried over from field. The birth of "Trad" and the retro trad, no scorekeeping, arra flinger has cut the original distances in half - and yet they still will not come out for a real scored shoot. Clearly evidenced by the (no) reaction to the new IBO shoot.

Take it to 15 max and it will not change. There still is an overwhelming indifference to accurate shooting. In fact the idea that missing is ok because of our equipment is widely accepted.
Pisses me off to hit a 5 on the 3D and have another trad shooter tell me "good shot - at least you got foam". Tells me they feel just sticking an animal is alright.

Steve

[Tom A]

Steve M. Yes I see that argument and its very valid but I also believe there are others who seem to hold a grudge against 3D because its more popular than there own favorite types of archery and they try there best to put down 3D for any reason they can out of jealousy and fear that there own favorite sport will die or be replaced. 3D would not be so popular these days if it was not fun how it is. I think there is a place for all types of archery an no need for us to constantly bicker and debate about these things that are probably never going to change any ways. Instead if we want people to shoot further distances we should be promoting the shoots that already have it.

Steve there are some distance constraints with 3D also. The lack of good back stops and nature of a 3D target which can cause deflections into encroaching suburbia housing is always something to worry about. We recently lost one of our oldest courses because of an arrow found in somebody's yard down the road from the club. The arrow was one of the old "Bear archery" arrows. Probably came out of some no-shot wonder trad shooters back quiver who was lobbing arrows at a distance he should not of been trying. The course is a frisbie golf range now.

[steve morley]

Pisses me off to hit a 5 on the 3D and have another trad shooter tell me "good shot - at least you got foam". Tells me they feel just sticking an animal is alright.

Steve

It could be true in some cases but thats the kind of thing I might say, the only reason is that I know it's a bad shot and he knows its a bad shot but I'm just trying to keep his spirits high so he wont do it again. It can only take one shot or a couple and peoples confidence call fall apart.

Maybe you're just pissed because you got a 5 and anything anybody says wont help.

I have shot the indoor Flint round and found that much more interesting, the targets set at 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 yards.

[Steve]

Na SteveM, making a bad shot once in awhile is not a goal, but I know it happens and most times doesn't upset me and gets left at the stake.

Being told a 5 on a 20 yd deer by someone honestly believing it makes me shake my head - pissed off was not the right term.

Steve

Steve

[bradd7]

Here's a novel idea. Why not take some of the so-called hunters onto the 20 yard indoor range, where pie-plate groups don't count, and let them prove themselves there before thinking about taking any shot over that yardage?

[tuffshot]

Steve,

They only say good shot when you get a five is because if you missed eveyone would have to look for it. You just saved them from briers, ticks and or whatever other creepy crawly things that might be in the brush.:D

[Steve]

Great point Tuffy:)

Steve

[Mark Hedges]

I think there are good fives and bad fives. If it is very close to the 8 than it can still be a good shot. But if it is almost in the back leg then not so much...

Mark

[steve morley]

I think there are good fives and bad fives. If it is very close to the 8 than it can still be a good shot. But if it is almost in the back leg then not so much...

Mark

Funny that reminds me of the IFAA European Bowhunters last year I was 4th position a good 50 points behind 3rd place, I just decided I had nothing to lose and went for it, the first 14 targets were all kills apart from one wound. The Austrian who had been in the lead all week just fell apart after 4 targets, my friend Andy Soars was hitting 3D's in the ears, legs, arse but he was hitting all 1st arrow shots, you could see he was feeling the pressure but he hung on and got his confidence back by about half way. Myself, Andy and my Estonian friend were all smoking and for 3 or 4 shots in a row as a group we all shot Pro kills and everybody had a great second half round. I had a bad moment on a 60 yard downhill deer and lost my nerve taking 4-5 targets to settle again but even the second half was a very solid Longbow score.

End of the tourney we couldn't figue who had won and had to go back to Admin to work out the scores, Andy had won (9 points between all 3 of us), he hung on with what looked like poor shots in the arse, back, legs and ears but he kept his faith and pulled through to win, a very exciting and tough tourney. Although we were competiting against each other we all encouraged and supported each other to perform our best.

I dont think this would have happened in IBO as the scoring is very different but those poor shots just hanging on the edge of foam is what gave Andy a great and well deserved win. :)

[Steve]

Or his poor shots kept him close - a few the other side of the line and he would have coasted in:).

To/for me (and me only):

Great shot = X
Good shot = 10
Ok = 8
Bad shot = 5 whether in the butt or almost touching the line
Unacceptable = 0/miss

Those that shoot much with me (mainly compounders) know it is not encouragement to me to tell me a poor shot is a good one.

That said, when I step to the stake, the last shot whatever it was, is usually (not lways) left at the last stake.

Again - just me.

Steve

[bradd7]

For me..and me only...

Great Shot (X-10) = good form and mind.
Good shot (8) = look at form and mind.
Okay (5)= no worries, continue trying to do better next shot.
Bad shot (miss) = twisted something, no worries, go back to full routine on next shot.

[rusty craine]

Oooooooo 60 yds down hill at a deer ??? now that just ain't right :) that course was set up by some one that needs professional mental health care. a rino or buffalo maybe, a deer OMG

rusty

[seany916]

Maybe it was a really overweight deer.

[Flint Hills Tex]

It's not just Neo-Trads ruining 3-D! I read an interview with a German-Canadian compound target champion. He stated that he would love to return to the 3-D scene, as that's where he got his start. But he was annoyed that an intermediate/mediocre archer could win a shoot ahead of a professional archer if he were better at judging distances. For this reason he hopes that the IBO and other organisations will alter their rules so that all target distances are known.

This is what they mean, when they talk about the dumbing down of the 3-D scene! I mean, part of the skill needed to shoot a 3-D course well is being able to judge unknown distances. Otherwise, we could just call it target archery using animal shaped targets!

I just read another article where they state that the ASA has given in and will allow tournament officials to decide whether yardages are known, unknown, or a mix of the two.

I still say, IMHO 3-D is a form of archery where unknown yardages must be estimated to be shot well. If you're not good at that, stick to other forms of archery with known yardages.

I know some folks also feel that the elimination of shots out beyond, say, 30 yards has also led to a "dumbing down" of 3-D. I don't know about North America, but on European courses there are difficult shots out to 60 meters (and further, if you shoot compound). I wouldn't want to miss that kind of challenge. Last Fall, I was so thrilled at shooting a fine kill on a Big Horn that was a good 50 yards across and down an alpine ravine. The shot was difficult and long, but the satisfaction of success was so much more sweet than on a close range, easy shot. I think you guys know where I'm coming from, right?

And even FITA field is a challenge: it's 24 targets, 12 at known, 12 at unknown yardage, anywhere between 5 and 60 meters.

Don't let these people destroy the sport! If they don't want to shoot long or unknown yardage, exclude them from the shoot. Host a "fun" shoot for that crowd, if you must, but keep the challenge in what we do!

[DanaC]

One of the things we're considering here is multiple classes for traditional shooters. Currently we set four stakes, kids, trad, compound hunter and unlimited. (Call 'em what you will.)

If we create a 'recurve unlimited' or 'recurve master' and have them shoot from the third stake, would it help? Sort out the longbows/woodies crowd from the DAS/carbon shooters?

This isn't set in stone, just wondering what others think.

Personally, I seldom shoot 3-D for score, I prefer a one-zero scoring system. One point for a kill (10 or 8 ring), zero for a clean miss, and minus one point for a wound (body hit or "5".) It's awful humbling to come out of the woods with a score of 14! And instructive, as in 'get your sorry * back to the target range, fool.' ;-)/2

[Flint Hills Tex]

One of the things we're considering here is multiple classes for traditional shooters. Currently we set four stakes, kids, trad, compound hunter and unlimited. (Call 'em what you will.)

If we create a 'recurve unlimited' or 'recurve master' and have them shoot from the third stake, would it help? Sort out the longbows/woodies crowd from the DAS/carbon shooters?

This isn't set in stone, just wondering what others think.

I read an article in "3-D Bogensport: No. 2/2008" about 3-D comps in South Africa, where they shoot according to IFAA rules. There they let all interested archers participate, but divide them up into 4 levels according to previous achievements, with each level having its own 1st-3rd place winners in each class. They are divided up as follows:

Master-Level=score > 490
Gold-Level=460-490
Silver-Level=430-460
Bronze-Level=400-430

Anyone scoring more than the highest score for their level at 3 consecutive shoots automatically gets bumped up to the next level.

I kind of like the idea. What do you guys think?

[foamkiller]

Flint I assume you are talking about Dietmar Trillus as the German-Canadian champion. I hope he knows that ASA now has two totally known distance classes. The K50 which is for those who shoot at the Pro or Semipro level, 50 yards max. The K45 for the amateur at 45 yard max. The ASA started these classes to give the field guys the opportunity to come out and shoot 3D without having to judge yardage. So far the classes are decently attended at the Proam level but still not enough to fill a range.

[Flint Hills Tex]

Flint I assume you are talking about Dietmar Trillus as the German-Canadian champion. I hope he knows that ASA now has two totally known distance classes. The K50 which is for those who shoot at the Pro or Semipro level, 50 yards max. The K45 for the amateur at 45 yard max. The ASA started these classes to give the field guys the opportunity to come out and shoot 3D without having to judge yardage. So far the classes are decently attended at the Proam level but still not enough to fill a range.

Yup, that's the guy! No doubt an excellent target archer, worthy of my greatest respect! But the "mediocre" archer who is a better judge of distances than the "excellent" target archer is the better 3-D archer and deserves to win!

If more FITA field rounds were shot in North America, then the field archers could get used to shooting unknown distances...

[steve morley]

In Estonia they have two leagues the lower is for newer Archers and at the end of the year the top three shooters move up and the bottom Archers of the top league have the option to move down if they so wish but we all shoot the same distances, just allows the newer guys a chance to develop. the 3 different leagues run for the whole year IFAA 3D, Fita 3D and IFAA Field league.

Mostly shoot IFAA marked Field and unmarked 3D with a little Fita Field and 3D, works out a nice balance of both marked and unmarked shooting, I find if I do too much of one then the other suffers, it doesn't take long to lose confidence in unmarked 3D when you shoot too much marked distance.

[Flint Hills Tex]

In Estonia they have two leagues the lower is for newer Archers and at the end of the year the top three shooters move up and the bottom Archers of the top league have the option to move down if they so wish but we all shoot the same distances, just allows the newer guys a chance to develop. the 3 different leagues run for the whole year IFAA 3D, Fita 3D and IFAA Field league.

That's exactly what I meant in one of my above posts when describing the South African 3-D scene. The solution seems great! The top notch archers feel challenged, while the amateurs still have a chance to win! They don't do that in Germany, though the 2 year old "Deutsche Bowhunter Liga" is considering something similar.

[steve morley]

The league shooting is a good idea as it encourages you to shoot all year, 12 points for a win, 11 points for second etc etc down the 1 point for 9th you have to do at least six of the 12 tourneys and they count only the 8 top scores so you can miss a couple and still have a chance of wining.

So far I'm top of all the leagues and came 2nd in each of the three leagues last year (only shot 6 months as moved to Estonia in June last year) :)

The system seems to work very well

[longbowguy]

I shot the annual traditional 3D event of the San Francisco Archers on Sunday. It is a fine event in steep coastal forest and this year they presented a new challenge, hard cross-country walking and challenging shots to 50 yards or so.

There were all levels of archers there and all sorts of tackle. I saw several yew longbows, many selfbows, many FITA recurves, modern hunting recurves and longbows, and a good many elegant one piece target recurves from the 60s and 70s.

My group included my 70" 1969 Hoyt Pro Medalist, a Wing Presentation, a Bob Lee recurve, a 72" Bear Tamerlane with a micarta riser (very rare). I saw several other Wing Archery bows, perhaps the most elegant of the golden era. I have both a Hoyt and a Wing and have owned several Bear Tamerlanes and Temujins, and a couple of Roots. I call these my golden oldies, and they remain very competitive and high performers, allowing a bit for their lower riser mass and dacrom strings.

There were over 100 archers, many women and some children and I heard not complaints about distance or difficulty. No dumbing down here. Second best score was shot with a wooden take-down hunting recurve, and top score was shot with a modern longbow and wooden arrows. It was a very, very high score. There were many really high scores, not mine alas, as I am not able to stay in form just now, but the quality of traditional archery in Northern California is the highest I have ever seen. And there is no whining, none, about shooting past 30 yards. Our sport is healthy hereabouts.

I am unable to defend my marked 3D title at Redding in May, or to attend the world bowhunter champs in Yankton, (I am moving to Colorado to marry the sweetheart of my distant youth) but I hope California will be well represented at both. - lbg

[steve morley]

I am unable to defend my marked 3D title at Redding in May, or to attend the world bowhunter champs in Yankton, (I am moving to Colorado to marry the sweetheart of my distant youth)

I cant think of a better excuse than true love to skip a shoot, congrats :highfive:

[Larry Hatfield]

heres a couple of pictures from the "moses lake rock shoot" courtesy of dick wightman. this shoot gets bigger every year. people love it. i missed for the first time in 15+ years because of a funeral.

[Larry Hatfield]

the second picture is of a wolf target. he's in the upper left middle behind some sage.

[DanaC]

Geez, that's a mean lookin' course! Thou shalt not miss!

[longbowguy]

They are dumbing it down in California. The four different state championships here have always required wooden arrows from longbows. No more! Beginning in June longbow archers may compete with any arrow. I imagine the local shoots will mostly follow suit. Probably not the traditional only shoots right away. But the ancient tradition is in decline. - lbg

[trapperDave]

seems to me the loudest whiners are those whining about someone else wanting a closer stake. Shoot from where YOU want to shoot,,,and let others do the same (without you're snide comments behind their backs) ;) my .02

[DanaC]

Heading out to shoot a 3-D in a bit. First time this year. It's at a club I used to belong to, can't wait to see how the course and the land have changed over the years. (It was logged /scalped shortly before I left. Didn't mind the ugliness but they took all the oaks off the knoll I hunted! Deer went elsewhere...)

Unfortunately this league favors wide-open lanes, and several good trad-only courses have shown me how much more fun it is snaking arrows through the trees ;-) Bringing a bunch of old wood arrows.

[DanaC]

Well, that was fun. We recycled a few woodies back to the forest, and had a blast. Shot with the same four guys I shoot with on Tuesday evenings, so the same old jokes were there.

Shot 195 out of 300, nothing special, or 11 on the 1,0,-1 scoring system I like (1 point for 8 or ten ring, zero for a clean miss, minus one for a '5' or wounding shot.) Really keeps you honest. Not so sure I like that much honesty...

Probably would have done better with my 'regular' bow and arrows but this was partly to see how a new/old bow (Howatt Hi-Speed) would do. Can't blame the bow, but I had little confidence in those old arrows. Next time I'll do better.