07/21/05 verse

[DaveHawk]

Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me, But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weekness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weeknesses, so the Christ power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Corinthians 12:8-10

[Esquire]

Sort of ties in with James ch. 1, v 2-4

"Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything."

Those can be hard words to hear and accept. I have come to believe that God is not all that concerned about our momentary "happiness", as it relates to how we "feel" at any given moment. Rather, He is primarily concerned with the condition of our souls.

Too many churches have told people that they will "feel" happy and have "no more troubles" once they "invite Jesus in." But that is not exacly the way it works, is it?

We are offered peace, but we are promised trouble! "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." (John 16:33)

[Garry]

Amen Esquire.

These verses have confused me.

Paul was given a thorn in his flesh by Satan via Satan’s messenger to buffet (slap him down) Paul so Paul would not get a big head and glorify himself to his fellow man as somehow being greater than they based on Paul's knowledge that he had been given revelations by Jesus/God and his fellow man had not. Paul then asks Jesus to remove this thorn Satan gave him but Jesus tells Paul not to worry because his grace was sufficient for Paul.

I keep asking myself why Satan would give Paul this thorn. Satan tries to get us to do the things that God does not want us to do. We know that God does not want us to get a big head, to be boastful, or prideful nor does not want us to glorify ourselves above our fellow man so why would Satan give Paul a thorn to keep Paul from doing something that God does not want him? I am confused why Satan gave Paul this thorn and why God did not give Paul the thorn to keep Paul humble.

I need help with this one. :help:

[Cato]

Garry,

Where is it that we learn that Satan sent the thorn? This is not an argumentative question, but a sincere one. I know God allows things, but that doesn't necessarily mean Satan caused it. So I'm curious to read more. Can you point me to where you got that?

Thanks
Cato

[DaveHawk]

Garry, satin dosn't cause all our problems. Remember the blind man from birth ? Jesus said that it was not caused by the fathers sin but it was done so that the Son of God may be glorified. This to I believe was placed in Paul so that he would look to the Lord for help in his times of weekness.

[Garry]

Cato,

That is how I read Corinthians2 12:7 in my King James bible but I will be the first to say that I could be wrong.

[Esquire]

Whether God gave it for His own good purposes, or Satan gave it for evil purposes and God used it for His own good purposes, we know two things, at least.

1. God allowed it and,
2. God used it to further His own plan.

Satan tries to hurt us. He prowls the earth seeking prey. God is able to take works of evil and use them for His own good ends. He is always capable of "redeeming the years the locusts have eaten" (Malachai, I believe).

If you do God's will you are his servant. If you do evil and He turns it to good you become, unwittingly, his tool. Either way his will ultimately gets done. as C.S. Lewis puts it, "Much better to be a servant than a tool."

[Garry]

Dave,

From my King James bible verse 12:8: "there was given me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, least I should be exaulted above measure."

Verses 1-5 talk about Paul's vison of paradise. In verse 5 Pauls says that he will give glory to the man he saw in paradise - verse 2. I Garry assume that Paul is glorifing this man he knew as a Christian more than 14 years ago because he saw that this man had passed the test and was now living in paradise with the Lord.

In verse 6 Paul says that although he would desire to be glorified by his fellow man Paul will not be fooled into telling an untruth. To me Paul is saying that while he desires to be gloried by his fellow man for passing the test and making it to paradise he will not be fooled into telling an untruth by impling that he deserves to be gloried now because he has seen paradise but he knows in his heart that he isn't a permanet member yet and should not be glorified by his fellow man for making it to paradise.

I am still confused about verse 12:8 and exactly who gave Paul the thorn.

After we get this figured out we can tackle verse 12:8 that talks about being caught up to the third heaven.

What is the third heaven? A third heaven implies that there is a heaven 1 and 2. What are they?

[Esquire]

Garry,

I hate to do a lengthy cut and paste, but I have found the remarks in the Matthew Henry Commentary to often be very helpful aides in understanding the Pauline text. There is some good stuff to be found here, on both the subject of this thorn, and why it was permitted, together with an explanation of the "third heaven" that might provide some good discussion starter for us.

http://www.ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC47012.HTM

Mike

[Garry]

Esquire,

Yes, scripture tells us that all things work for the glory of the Lord but who do you think gave Paul the thorn? To me, verse 12:7 says that it was Satan through his messenger and Satan's purpose in giving Paul the thorn was to buffet Paul so Paul would not be exalted higher than Paul rightly deserved?

Is Satan saying that I will give Paul this thorn because I don't want Paul's followers to exalt him because Paul was given a vision and revelation by the Lord. Instead I will weaken Paul with this thorn so his followers with exalt me Satan.

I love this site and all my fellow Christian friends who post on TradTalk.

[Esquire]

I never gave this much thought. If King James has the best translation, it looks to me like Satan's messenger gave Paul the thorn.

I'm not sure it's given to us to know what Satan was thinking. He hates us and wants to hurt God and destroy us.

But I don't have any real problem with Matthew Henry Commentary's take on it, which is, in part:

The design of this was to keep the apostle humble: Lest he should be exalted above measure, v. 7 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=2Co+12:7). Paul himself knew he had not yet attained, neither was already perfect; and yet he was in danger of being lifted up with pride. If God love us, he will hide pride from us, and keep us from being exalted above measure; and spiritual burdens are ordered, to cure spiritual pride. This thorn in the flesh is said to be a messenger of Satan, which he did not send with a good design, but on the contrary, with ill intentions, to discourage the apostle (who had been so highly favoured of God) and hinder him in his work. But God designed this for good, and he overruled it for good, and made this messenger of Satan to be so far from being a hindrance that it was a help to the apostle.

[DaveHawk]

Garry, satin was allowed to place this thorn in Paul yes, but Paul relized he couldn't be effective for the Lord if he come into submission of the thorn and he did ask God to remove it. But look up what the Lord told Paul in responce.

[DaveHawk]

I thought it appropreit to explain; 5 and a half years ago I was riding in my van to a customers home and heard on the radio and questionar. It was 13 questions about adults with ADHD Attention Defficet Hyper Disorder. I answered all 13 positive and called the clinic. I entered the program for a study hosted by E.L.Lilly for and drug called Strattra. This program lasted over a little over 4 years for me. It changed my life.
> I have never been a good student or speller because my attention span was so short. Not more than a minite, Owning a shop I would have 15 projects going and never seeming to get them done timely. Always getting distracted and working on the one I saw something that needed done then needing sometime for that project I would go looking for the idem and see something on another project, thus running around like a chicken with it's head cut off.
>Holding a converstion was just as bad, always changing the subject in the middle of a topic.
>Anyway the afternoon I got home from hearing the questions I had 3 messages and all 3 were very close friends who heard it also and though of me. The Lord was making sure I heard the news. For 47 years I went through life like this and now life with the family is great. We talk insted of arguing and the shop is ran very orderly and I can have converstions even write with out loseing my train of thought. Many people take writing and conversing for granite but it is a gift.
>This is all to say, I am today able to write to you with out stumbing over my words. Spelling , well that a whole different monster LOL. God Bless.

Sorry I wanted to put this in a new post.I didn't realize I was still in this tread.

[Swanny]

Hi Garry, As I read the verses it appears God gave the 'gift' of a tormenting messenger of Satan to Paul, otherwise know as a 'thorn' or something uncomfortable and not pleasant (unlike a flower :) ). The reason behind the gift: humility and an attitude of dependence results when a true child of God goes through suffering....Christ is glorified more.

It was such a nasty thorn that Paul asked for God to take away the 'gift' he just gave. The answer was negative, so instead of bitterness, gloom and despair, Paul responded in a way that gloried in his suffering. The previous chapter is all about what Paul went through in order to glory in the Cross.

Kinda funny, was sitting here this morning reading D.A. Carson's book "How Long O Lord? Reflections on Suffering and Evil". Was given to us by someone who didn't know us before we left MD. Very good book.

[webrehm]

Romans 8:28-30 says that God uses all things to conform us to the image of Christ. That includes the works of Satan, as hard as that may be to believe! Thus God allowed Pauls thorn in the flesh to remain so that the Power of God in Paul would be made stronger and thus he would be more like Christ. Perhaps Pauls thorn in the flesh was later removed, but that is just speculation. It was the work of Satan to crucify Jesus, yet God used that for His ultimate glory.


Dennis

[Matt]

Dave,
That scripture was very fitting for my day. Thank You.

[Garry]

Ok, I think I understand the thorn, who put it there and why. Thanks for all of your help. I did a lot of research on the net this afternoon and it appears that most bible scholars feel certain that the man Paul saw in paradise during his vision was Paul himself. I would have never have considered that possibilty.

It seems like whatever the scripture verse(s), there are as many opinions and interpretations amoung believers as there are believers. Why is this?

[Cato]

Gary,

OK, now I'm clued in. Thanks.

My Matthew Henry commentary says (in his opinion I suppose) that Satan sent the difficulty with evil intentions, and God permitted it to keep Paul humble.

I think that is more or less what Esquire said. And I, like you, may not be understanding it alltogether either. :) But that explanation does seem to make some sense.

Cato