This place has slowed down

[rhust]

I havent started a thread here for a while, but check in every so often. It seems there is not as much discussion going on here as there once was. Some of the regulars dont seem to post any more. What has been going on with this site?

[Martin Farrent]

I see plenty of quality discussion, Rhust.

As far as I can tell, intelligent people tend to stick to this site (and the site to them). I haven't really noticed any prominently missing voices, but perhaps that's because debate has remained on a high level of complexity, controversy and cordiality at the same time - something that is rare on the Internet. Those that prefer shouting matches may have wandered off. I couldn't really tell you.

What I have always noticed (so it hasn't changed, either) is that some people like to do their 'rougher' ;) posting elsewhere - but come here when they have pressing problems concerning bows and arrows. You may register that the Watering Hole is a somewhat under-visited part of this site, whereas the equivalents elsewhere sometimes form the prime attraction.

Re water and drinks, but off topic: Personally, I'm not all that keen on bars of any variety anymore. But the ones that have inmates rather than patrons can be the most tedious. There they sit in beery, envious resentment of the outside world... You'd think the doors were locked!

Best,

Martin

[SteveGabriel]

It seemed to slow down after the DAS/Titan brawls.

Some bad mouthing continues elsewhere on the net, but folks here seem to prefer sticking to shooting fundamentals.

New people have been coming on board and the monthly 'challenges' so participants can work on sharpening their skills seem to be taking hold.
I don't know why Martin doesn't join in the June challenge though...;)

[the other DWS]

It also tends to be somewhat seasonal. When we can't get outside and shoot our bows we tend to sit at the 'puter and shoot our mouths. Once shooting season kicks in---along with lawn work, vacations, etc etc--we don't have as much time to spend here unless its to solve a problem.

Also if you look at the list of who's logged it there are a lot of guys who log in and monitor but don't feel the need to post unless a topic comes up that they feel strongly about or feel that they have something to offer to the conversation.

This site seems to be pleasantly relatively free of the "x2", "x3", and "same here" posts that over stuff other sites where there seems to be some sort of scoring system for how many/often times you post or how many responses your post generates

[Papabull]

Having a site dedicated to shooting limits the amount of nonsense fluffing up the content. It's a matter of quality over quantity. We've been around long enough that we don't need to encourage vitriolic rhetoric or gossip. That always generates lots and lots of posts, but it's usually from the same people posting over and over again to the detriment of everyone else.

[Martin Farrent]

I don't know why Martin doesn't join in the June challenge though...;)

'Cos I had to take a longish break from shooting and am only just getting the hang of it again... Come August, I might be hitting the paper again.

Hey DWS, no scoring system for posts per annum? And I'd just cooked up this wonderful scheme of copy-pasting stuff from elsewhere... :(

Best,

Martin

[Jim Casto Jr]

As far as I can tell, intelligent people tend to stick to this site (and the site to them).

Best,

Martin

Thanks Martin. Very enlightening.

[Martin Farrent]

Thanks for the implicit correction, Jim... you're right.

Some intelligent people have obviously felt uncomfortable here. The kind of naked, infant intelligence that comes without other developed skills lacks a playground in a mature environment. But fortunately, there are other places where people can do their growing up, however long it may take them. I don't miss the scabs on my knees or the bullies... though I was a tall kid and could handle them. I'll take a trip down memory lane now and again, but I don't live there.

Best,

Martin

[rhust]

This used to be one of my favorite sites, but after I spent some time here I found it to be somewhat closed minded. That is ok, because if fills a niche. There are some very intelligent people who frequent here, but sometimes I find them to be pretty one sided. I miss some of the guys that have left, they brought variety to this forum. I still find it to be a valuable source of information. I am glad that there are many different types of forums out there.

[ahshoot]

Sorry to disappoint. Do you feel the need to get this horrible secret you've been holding off your chest, so that you can continue on with life unburdened? Just wondering what your motivation might be.

[rhust]

Just an observation, nothing more.

[ahshoot]

I just don't agree with making negative observations known without prior solicitation. It usually doesn't accomplish anything but put people on the defensive.

[Papabull]

This place can seem very "one-minded", rhust. It's dedicated to excellence in this sport and we don't tolerate a bunch of pot stirring tripe. People who can't discuss things in a civil fashion get the boot. Those who can't discuss things in an intelligent and mature fashion tend to get straightened out by the core membership. Beginners may not post much because they may feel they have nothing to contribute but, of course, that's not really the case.

If someone is looking for an argument that target shooting is for sissies then they'll have to go elsewhere for that. If they want to pound their chests and declare to the world that metal risers aren't traditional, they won't be around long. If they want to argue that people who use aiming techniques take the easy way out, they'll get no traction here.

If gossip about other people and other sites and talking trash about non-members is their idea of good conversation, then there are places much better suited to that sort of thing. This site won't appeal to everyone. Because of the experience on this site, there isn't a whole lot that's all too controversial. Experienced and educated people tend to draw the same conclusions and when they don't, they tend to disagree civilly and remain friends so there aren't very many long debate threads. That sort of thing does generate a lot of discussion, of course, but vitriolic debate also generates a lot of hard feelings and generally over nothing.

This is a good place for people who care about shooting and the SPORT of archery, so it's not a surprise that it's primarily populated and frequented by people who care about that and enjoy discussing it and sharing their thoughts with like minded people. Believe it or not, the things we enjoy talking about, sharing and doing here may not necessarily create warm fuzzy feelings everywhere.

[ahshoot]

Metal vs. wood, gap vs. instinctive......

The bottomline is are you improving in your shooting, no matter what or how you shoot. That's what I try to do here. I have gotten into a few debates in the watering hole over trivial stuff, but I'm trying to reform myself :)

[Martin Farrent]

Experienced and educated people tend to draw the same conclusions and when they don't, they tend to disagree civilly and remain friends so there aren't very many long debate threads.

Actually, I partially disagree with you there, Robert.

There have been some very long debates on fundamental disagreements about shooting here. Some of the longest productive debates I have ever seen anywhere on the Internet. But yes, they have remained friendly and remarkably free of redundancy, despite the length. And yes, that is exceedingly rare for long debates on the Internet. Of course, it has been very beneficial that people haven't seen fit to spice them with daft comments about their hangovers or implied virility. I've always wondered about people who need to do that.

Best,

Martin

[ahshoot]

Man and I was just about to start making dirty jokes related to my bow and such :) Guess I'll have to go elsewhere with my amazing humor.

[Martin Farrent]

Man and I was just about to start making dirty jokes related to my bow and such :) Guess I'll have to go elsewhere with my amazing humor.

You know something that has always puzzled me? People who feel they get to know each other better by talking about really dumb stuff, instead of the topics they're allegedly interested in.

But the shape of your bow is a different matter and dismally serious. I think I have the same problem as you... ;)

Best,

Martin

[Martin Farrent]

Btw, Rhust.

I've been following usage of this thread via the "Last click" facility. Seems lots of people have a quick glance at it - some of them turning up from nowhere all of a sudden. But they all tend to move off to the actual archery threads within a short space of time. Could that be significant (to you and your original comment)?

Best,

Martin

[bcoulter]

It also tends to be somewhat seasonal. When we can't get outside and shoot our bows we tend to sit at the 'puter and shoot our mouths. Once shooting season kicks in---along with lawn work, vacations, etc etc--we don't have as much time to spend here unless its to solve a problem.




what he said.................when the weathers nice I spend most of my time outdoors, and less at the computer.

I still check in daily to see what's going on but don't spend the hours here I normally do during fall and winter.

[Desert Archer]

...I found it to be somewhat closed minded.
and
...I find them to be pretty one sided.

Bob Gordon,

Have there been any reports of black helicopters or guys in blue helmets lurking around the water supplies in Idaho?

Sorry but partial quotes above are so far off the mark I just can't take them seriously.

Dave (no doubt one of the closed minded, one sided members)

[Steve]

I think it has to do with the fact that in some circles and for some odd reason, it is considered a badge of honor to have been banned from the more popular sites. Most who feel this way have suceeded in earning their "badge" -therefore the quiet/welcome peace. May be there are a few still trying to earn their bones.

Steve

[Bob Gordon]

DA...Beleive it or not but we DO have a black helicopter flying low and slow around here in the eary fall with one guy hanging out of the door with bino's looking for some of the 'tax free gardening" going on in the woods...lol..warf

[Desert Archer]

...looking for some of the 'tax free gardening" going on in the woods...lol..warf

Bob, that seems to be a growth industry every where there's a National Forrest. (smiley face goes here)

Dave

[Scooter]

One thing that immediately attracted me to this sight was it was genuinely free of all the chest thumping, posing and posturing present on some boards. Just genuinely good conversation and thought provoking conversation with little BS.

Also agreed on the seasonal thing. Some people post so much on some boards that you really wonder when they ever shoot and maybe that in itself is telling.

My two favorite boards are fairly slow moving (this and the SAGI) and I have no issue with it.

[ROD JENKINS]

My two favorite boards are fairly slow moving (this and the SAGI) and I have no issue with it.


Good point Scooter.......as both forums are active shooter oriented, and not many with the time, to start threads.

[Crowdog]

"Target shooting is for sissies", now thays funny!!!

[Eskrimaworks]

I originally joined this site @ 2yrs ago(if I remember correctly), but I couldn't remember my login info and had to create a new profile. I have always found the quality of the content to far outweigh the quantity found on other sites and find myself reading a lot more than posting. Thank you all for your contributions.

Dan

[Pinelander]

rhust - the complaint department is currently closed for the weekend.

But I'm sure your unhappiness and the subsequent hairball that was coughed up....

will be extensively reviewed the second Tuesday of next week. :brickwall:

[DAS]

I prefer a low dose of sanity to mainlined insanity anyday. If you are looking for good information, no other site comes close. If you are looking for a fight, or gossip, or an exchange of Voodoo tips, then yep! this site is pretty slow. :crymeariv

David

[Martin Farrent]

Someone who mostly posts elsewhere sent me a PM about my first comment in this thread. He complained that referring to you guys as intelligent was elitist and insulting to less intelligent visitors - and might even deter them from participation here. So for what it's worth: I am deeply sorry for any injury I may have caused any of you by thinking of you folks as intelligent. :)

@Steve: Good point.

Best,

Martin

[Desert Archer]

Martin,

I knowed you wasn't talkin' 'bout me so I din't get o'fended!

Dave

[Scooter]

Martin,

Maybe you didn't here over in Germany. Stupid is the new cool in the U.S. It's the Beavis and Butthead mentality, where being intelligent and articulate is somehow akin to a character flaw and not nearly as cool as speaking, writing and spelling badly.

Must be a frustrating time for English teachers.

[Steve]

Martin,

Maybe you didn't here over in Germany. Stupid is the new cool in the U.S. It's the Beavis and Butthead mentality, where being intelligent and articulate is somehow akin to a character flaw and not nearly as cool as speaking, writing and spelling badly.

Must be a frustrating time for English teachers.

To derail a bit - does it bother any one else to to try to read a post done in the finest cellphone "text type"? :( Pretty much makes it unreadable to me.

Steve

[Ringwood]

Someone who mostly posts elsewhere sent me a PM about my first comment in this thread. He complained that referring to you guys as intelligent was elitist and insulting to less intelligent visitors - and might even deter them from participation here. So for what it's worth: I am deeply sorry for any injury I may have caused any of you by thinking of you folks as intelligent. :)

@Steve: Good point.

Best,

Martin

Low expectations are easy to meet. I've worked in the construction trade a lot and the conversation tends to fall to the lowest common denominator most of the time, in fact it is almost a requirement if you want to get along.

[tuffshot]

My time is limited for this stuff, so going to an informational archery site instead of an entertainment archery site fits the bill. There is always something worth while to find on some but there are a couple that I just don't have time for, they are no longer entertaining.

[Crowdog]

Truth be known, this is the only site that the "experts" are experts, and things around here are friendly and guys here are polite to each other. Even in a dang arguement, there is politeness. This site is the only one where you can speak your mind, and not get jumped and ganged up on by the other side, or his friends and buddies. This is the only site where you can talk modern technology and gadgets and not get jumped on by the "religous" trad shooters that think their way is the only true way.
Sad that guys come here to stir up a hornets nest, but once here, won't speak their minds. A lot of guys ain't here anymore, and I don't think they are missed. It seems the back stabbing is gone, the disrespect for guys like Papa Bull and Dave Sosa are gone, and the ones that are so opininated I don't think are missed. The guys are on another site, the one where the word DAS or Dave Sosa gets you instantly jumped on, and where the word respect is not known, a place that money can and did buy. Go there to visit, but don't tell them hi from me. Anthony

[SteveGabriel]

Truth be known, this is the only site that the "experts" are experts, and things around here are friendly and guys here are polite to each other. Even in a dang arguement, there is politeness.
...The guys are on another site, the one where the word DAS or Dave Sosa gets you instantly jumped on, and where the word respect is not known, a place that money can and did buy.
...

On target, Anthony. I went to the other site a few times.
For a short time, I found info similar to what I see here. Plenty of bashing of individuals, though.

I like coming here because this group accepts that
stickbows are accurate and an average individual can shoot one well by consistent practice and sticking to
good shooting fundamentals.

[Martin Farrent]

rhust,

After watching this thread for a couple of days, I'm still puzzled as to what you explicitly miss. Judging by the responses, I think others share my sentiments. So I'd really appreciate some clarification along the lines of the following questions:

1) You posted a critical comment, worded quite civilly. Subsequently, it wasn't edited beyond recognition - for example to say something obscene under your name (some sites do that, you know). Would you prefer such a policy?

2) It seems you weren't banned for it either. Or automatically suspected of being someone else. Was that an oversight on the part of the mods here?

3) No one has decided to punish you, by following you all over the Internet, reading everything you say and starting rudely aggressive threads about you in some everything-goes section of the board. Fortunately, there is no such section anyway. Should there be one?

4) A mildly rough comment directed towards you was even deleted. Was that a mistake?

5) The people you apparently miss didn't exactly flock to your side, though a good few turned up to read the thread. In terms of loyalty, I'd be wondering whether they were worth missing. Or do you think cowardice a virtue?

6) You still haven't made any attempt at starting a constructive thread focussing on the topics or angles you consider under-developed here. Or should other people be doing this for you?

7) Some first-class archers have turned up in this thread. Doesn't look like they're moving in a hurry. Do you ever wonder why they like it here?

8) I suggest you mow your lawn - seriously. I find that neighbours invariably turn up for a chat when I do that. We discuss all sorts of non-archery stuff and even crack a few non-archery jokes. Or are your neighbours a bit unsavoury?

9) Do you really imagine that people who work hard to maintain a serious information centre for archers appreciate others who leach-up on knowledge there, but then go elsewhere to bash it (like high school students honing their unfinished personalities by trashing their school, yet accepting the diploma)? Do you think they even appreciate non-bashers who gladly socialise with the bashers at all times - except when they need information about shooting bows?

10) Where do beginners go, if they don't want to remain beginners for more than six months? a) A place where they get solid, concise advice; or b) A place where wishy-washy yells of encouragement are interspersed with dirty jokes? Back to the high school analogy: In later life, do people best remember the teachers who taught them well, or the graffitti on the school's toilet walls?

Best,

Martin

[Odie]

Well, one could say that the site is quite slow moving ... So what?

There are things in this life that better be taken slow and enjoyed for what they are :) I appreciate the pace of this place (whatever it is), atmosphere and the quality of discussion, information and help available here.

TT seems to be a little biased sometimes, true, but I guess it comes from the fact that folks here discuss things that are practical, really work in archery, and help achieve better accuracy instead of indulging in an endless chatter about archery myths, etc (wont go deeper into that subject :))
But, even if somebody comes to the table with beliefs and arguments that are different from what most of the members think, he can expect to be treated with respect and civility (even in heated debates). I've yet to see here personal attacks and bashing in public...

So, TT mods and members: :youdaman: and let it stay that way.

OK enough of the back-patting, gotta go do some shooting :)

Cheers

[Tom A]

To derail a bit - does it bother any one else to to try to read a post done in the finest cellphone "text type"? :( Pretty much makes it unreadable to me.

Steve

Hey Steve. I actually post here from my cell phone. LOL
But I know what you mean.

I like this site most because words like score and competition are not frowned on here. Since I have shot against some of the best its hard for me to take advice very seriously unless somebodys shooting can be tracked through past scores. And if you read between the lines here we do have some of the best shooters compared to other sites where backyard wonders give advice like they are masters of the barebow.

[bcoulter]

rhust,

In later life, do people best remember the teachers who taught them well, or the graffitti on the school's toilet walls?

Best,

Martin


Great post Martin,

I especially like that last line. Without a doubt I remember those teachers that "taught me well"; the ones that were considered tough, and demanding with high standards.

[bcoulter]

Oh and one more point: I don't consider TT slow at all, the pace is perfect for me. I can check in once or twice a day and keep up with what's going on. If I miss a day it is still relatively easy to catch up.

[Steve]

Hey Steve. I actually post here from my cell phone. LOL


u spl gud tho:)
c u

steve

[Martin Farrent]

I don't consider TT slow at all, the pace is perfect for me.


Exactly, Bill.

And speed ain't everything. One can maintain a tremendous pace by encouraging tons of BS to obscure the topics of threads. But try to use the search function on such a board to retrieve some seriously needed information. The results are laughable or frustrating, depending on how badly your require the help. Well... I suppose they could be useful if you were coincidentally also looking for a motor-bike, a stray dog or a definitive way of looking at women (from afar and over the rim of a beer can).

Best,

Martin

[Bill Carlsen]

Having been in the sport for over half a century I have seen and heard a lot. I think I know a fair amount about how bows and arrows work. Many others here also seem to have a lot of experience and expertise and add to the site by sharing their experiences regarding what has or has not worked for them. Other sites are full of new comers and a whole lot of people with some experience and some sucesses....just enough to give them some credibility but certainly not what I would call expertise. Many of the new experts often take their new knowledge and make proclamations that are far reaching and misleading but with just enough truth to make an arguement of their perception of what is really going on. For example, go over to the LW and there are two posts started by a fellow I know from the Muzzy Stump shoot. He has slow motion video of arrows coming off of bows and it is amazing to me how even when the evidence is there people just cannot grasp what reality is in regards to such a simple thing as archer's paradox
and the need for properly spined arrows or the existence of hand shock when an arrow is released. More often than not, on this site I believe that those who have had some ego issues and are looking for a platform to express their point of view or who just want to be heard get intimidated by the thoughtful and knowledgeable and dare I say, civility of the posters. Most of them time on the other sites the only time I post any longer is to share an experience or the try to correct flagrant misunderstandings of how things are. But even that is getting to be old so I do not post much at all lately. I seem to get the most enjoyment out of shared experiences during hunting seasons. When I come here, which I do daily, there is often not much I feel I can add to many of the things already posted as it is usually good information and my two cents would just be paraphrasing something that has already been said or explained. This is the best site to come to if you really want to learn or understand how to get an arrow from here to there and to ask those "stupid" questions.:)

[rhust]

I never said this was a bad site, quite the opposite. I am a patron here, and there is a lot of good info. I simply stated that when I come here there seems to be less threads, less "old timers" posting, and even most here admit that it can be one sided at times. I like that this forum is more about accuracy that anything else. I have been shooting a long time, and have shot with some of the best as well. I like reading post from archers who are great shots. I also like the traditional side of archery. I love the different exotic woods, hand crafted equipment, and simplicity of it all. This forum has its place, and so do most of the others. I was not trying to be hostile, and I don’t think my post in the past have been either. I like to read open minded threads, by people who know what they are talking about. Thanks to those great shooters that take the time to post here. In the end it is all about accuracy, but there are other things about this sport that appeal to different people.

[Martin Farrent]

...and even most here admit that it can be one sided at times.

They haven't so much admitted it as stated their appreciation of it, rhust.

I love the different exotic woods, hand crafted equipment, and simplicity of it all.

So do some others here. Why not get that side of it going a bit more? I doubt anyone would object. Why, even Bob Gordon has often voiced his aesthetic appreciation of a handsome wooden bow. :)

I was not trying to be hostile...

Sorry, but many of us felt you were looking for a showdown and perhaps hoping for some input that then didn't materialise. I'm glad you weren't.


In the end it is all about accuracy, but there are other things about this sport that appeal to different people.

Fine. Some sites focus on those other things a bit more. The LW's love of nicely made wooden bows comes to mind. But I've yet to see those aspects of the sport shouted down here. Give it a try. Tell us what currently appeals to you.

Best,

Martin

P.S. I do unterstood your point about missing people - in a couple of cases. But those people have gone to a place where I won't go to meet them. And the fact that they've gone there and feel happy among a certain type, even though they apparently remain above the fray themselves, makes me miss them a lot less. In fact, I only have to think rationally to not miss some much at all. Do you get my drift?

In other words: I have friends who don't get along. They remain my friends, but aren't each other's. That's fine and normal, and no one sees a problem. But I don't have friends that regard bashing other friends of mine as a major purpose in their lives. To have such friends would contradict my understanding of friendship. And people who do have such friends don't understand friendship the way I do. And for that reason, they tend to stop being my friends, too.

[Pinelander]

This used to be one of my favorite sites, but after I spent some time here I found it to be somewhat closed minded.
Stating such things can be perceived as an insult to some folks, rhust. It is difficult to be all things to all people. If you don't like the environment or the direction of this board, then I would suggest you go elsewhere to discuss such things that fall under your preference of less "closed mindedness".

It is difficult to understand just what it is you are specifically complaining about.... and honestly I don't think I want to hear the specifics, if I'm even close to guessing what I think it is. I'm not sure what you were expecting by making a public statement of discontent about this board, and I'm also not sure if the complaint department will be open on the second Tuesday of next week.... maybe try again for the third Thursday of next week.

[Martin Farrent]

I'm not sure what you were expecting by making a public statement of discontent about this board, and I'm also not sure if the complaint department will be open on the second Tuesday of next week.... maybe try again for the third Thursday of next week.

Piney,

I prefer to think that rhust no longer wishes to register a complaint, but has understood that he himself has the power to address shortcomings - since he can very easily revive the facets of this board he considers neglected, by starting the relevant discussions. Perhaps he and some others are also coming to terms with the fact that some missing people have a definition of loyalty at odds with their own, and that there are very quiet but definite ways of expressing that feeling - even if there's regret at the price loyalty must sometimes pay. I hope he finds adequate replacement in the newcomers we get here as a result of the fine discussions we enjoy - and not least in those newcomers with tastes similar to his own, who may be attracted by the very aspects he may be covering in threads he may be starting.

Best,

Martin

[Desert Archer]

Sorry guys but this sounds like the same crap we are getting from the politicians...my statements were taken out of context & sorry if anyone took offense.

Members are free here to talk about everything from English Longbows and instinctive aiming to Olympic recurves. Calling that "closed minded" is insulting and looking for a fight. It appears he just wasn't ready for the fight he got.

Dave

[Martin Farrent]

Sorry guys but this sounds like the same crap we are getting from the politicians...my statements were taken out of context & sorry if anyone took offense.

It does happen though, Dave. One place where words are often taken out of context is the marriage office. ;)

(Sorry, couldn't resist that one. But on topic: Let's give the guy the benefit of the doubt. That's one of the things that sets us apart from paranoid censors and vigilantes elsewhere on the Internet. We've made some reasonable points, and not only rhust may need some time to digest them and draw constructive conclusions. Of Feanor 'tis said in the Silmarillion: "We ask more of him than you may think." Something like that, anyway. ;) Not to confuse Feanor's treasure with trivialities like 'being one of the bad boyz'.)

Best,

Martin

[Martin Farrent]

My 2000th post on this board!

And this thread seems as fitting a place as any to celebrate it.

I'm not good at the sentimental stuff, so - without naming anyone - I'll keep my thanks to dozens of you anonymous and brief (but very sincerely heartfelt all the same). It's for friendship, intellectual challenge, good humour and a great deal of help.

In all honesty and back on topic: The amount of good advice I have received here is almost unbelievable. But I don't think there's a single suggestion I'm still using that originated with someone who no longer posts on this board. That is not a political exaggeration. It's fact.

:youdaman: (All of you!)

Best,

Martin

[rhust]

Sorry Dave, but I was not looking for an internet fight that is just silly. What is that going to accomplish? A discussion maybe, but not a fight. If you are insulted by me saying closed minded than so be it. I have been accused of that in other areas. Some of the responses to this thread are the elitist attitudes that I do not care for. Martin is right, I wasn’t really complaining, just expressing my opinion. Sorry. Enough of this I am going shooting. There is another big tournament next weekend I need to practice for. I will take this forum for what it is. See ya.

[Martin Farrent]

Some of the responses to this thread are the elitist attitudes that I do not care for.

This site is elitist, rhust. And it's egalitarian at the same time.

You join the elite by simply caring for a high standard of shooting and posting. Anyone with the right attitude can be a member of that elite from the very first day he touches a bow.

Best,

Martin

[Pinelander]

.... I wasn’t really complaining, just expressing my opinion. Sorry.
Was that a personal apology to DA, or a general apology to the board as a whole? Either way, good to hear you have decided to focus on shooting, rather than complaining about this board, to those that enjoy it.

Your message is loud and clear, rhust.... you don't like TradTalk because you think it is elitist (in some sort of negative way) and you also don't like TradTalk because you think it is closed minded (of what, I'm not sure). No doubt, opinions vary and I disagree with your conclusions. It's pretty clear that you will find (or have found) some other board that suits your personal preferences. Good luck in your shooting and also in visiting a board that better provides whatever you think this one doesn't, depending on whatever it is you're looking for. Hmmmm.... this brings to mind that endless discussion of "Who's on first, What's on second".

[SteveGabriel]

Hey guys, let's slow this down a bit.
I love this site because of the quality of the discussions
and the amount of information available.
Let's leave the pissing contests to the other boards.

[rico]

You join the elite by simply caring for a high standard of shooting and posting. Anyone with the right attitude can be a member of that elite from the very first day he touches a bow.

Shooting Instinctive is being elite and Traditional doesn't get much more elite than that.
Why ya all so jumpy on this site??

[Desert Archer]

Shooting Instinctive is being elite and Traditional doesn't get much more elite than that.
Why ya all so jumpy on this site??

You really don't get it do you. Look at the heading at the top of the page where it says, "Dedicated to the Pursuit of Excellence in Archery".

There is nothing "elite" about what aiming system you use, just as there is nothing "elite" about what label you hang on yourself. To the vast majority of the members here, being "elite" comes from how well you shoot. Period!

Dave

[Ranger]

This is an interesting thread. There are a lot of traditional archery sites on the web and each one seems to cater to a particular person's taste. I have learned something from many of them. I have never found the members on this site to be one sided. Many are passionate about their ideas, but have been open to other ideas regarding accurate shooting of traditional bows. This site is a wealth of information if you just read and absorb. Fast or slow, I still believe the best technical information on bow tuning and accurate shooting are found on this board and from some of the shooters who post here.

[tuffshot]

I beleive the key word is pursuit not elite.
For so many there is not just one way to be an archer and with an open mind there are many who have different views on how to pursue that goal. Having a place to express those views is the basic fundimental of this particular site.


Limiting ones self to just one ideal is an elitest attitude. I do not really see that here.

[Martin Farrent]

Let's leave the pissing contests to the other boards.

Steve is right.

An archery board largely geared to bashing another archery board is such a ridiculous and nasty-minded facility that we should avoid any resemblance at all. No need to belabour rhust any further either. He said his bit and got his answers, can draw his conclusions and post a bit differently in future. Cyber-persecution is another crowd's style, and having been one of their victims I can say it's ultimately as ineffective as loading a revolver with blanks. The first six rounds are loud and hurt your ears. After that, the gun just clicks, and the attacker looks like an actor who's forgotten his next lines.

And let's not forget: If rhust was in any way attacking us, he did at least have the guts to say it to our faces and in a place where we could respond. I wouldn't say I value him more for it. But he doesn't inspire the total, bored contempt I've come to entertain for spineless clowns in unnamed hiding places. It's healthy to express such contempt every once in a while. Not healthy to dwell on it overly. Some months ago, I realised I could no longer care less most of the time. One key ingredient of that indifference was realising that the kind of people I truly like despise the kind of people who attempt to persecute in such a disturbed and petty way. The rest - a minority - don't matter a bit to me. They're just handles on a computer screen, mildly signifying vulgarity and misery. Half-hearted archers quite probably and meaningless entities most certainly.

Best,

Martin

[rico]

There is nothing "elite" about what aiming system you use, just as there is nothing "elite" about what label you hang on yourself.

DA how come you get to pick what is elite for everybody?

[Papabull]

Shooting Instinctive is being elite and Traditional doesn't get much more elite than that.
Why ya all so jumpy on this site??

So, how did David get to pick what was elite for everybody? Probably the same way you came to pick what's "elite" for everybody, LOL. Actually, though, Rico... if you paid attention, you'd notice David didn't pick what was elite for everybody. You did. He just disagreed with you that merely saying "I shoot instinctive" makes you an elite traditional archer.

Oh.. and about your quote there.... we're not jumpy on this site. We just don't let stupid remarks lie around germinating so that they can sprout new stupid remarks and I tend to agree with Dave that "shooting instinctive is being elite" is one of the kinds of remarks that sounds stupid enough to be challenged. There's nothing whatsoever to make "instinctive shooting" elite. It's just one method of aiming and it's as good as you can make it work - no more and no less. Ultimately, you're as good an archer as your shooting says you are and how you aim is completely irrelevant to everyone but you.

[Martin Farrent]

Rico,

Once people get over the prejudice that everyone here is opposed to instinctive shooting, they find it pretty easy to initiate cordial and interesting discussions about the method. But if they approach the topic as if launching a protest against some perceived anti-instinctive establishment, the tone is poisoned from the very outset. Given a calm context, DA has written quite neutrally on the issue in the past, as have PB and others.

Some people perceive some topics as touchy here (wooden bows come to mind), when they really aren't a problem at all. I think rhust may entertain the same misunderstanding. When this feeling generates posts that sound like battle-cries, the threads are pretty much doomed from the very beginning.

Best,

Martin

[Desert Archer]

Rico,

A race car driver isn't elite because he holds the steering wheel at 9-3 instead of 10-2 like most others. He's elite because he drives faster (the object of the race).

A practical pistol shooter isn't elite because he shoot with a Weaver Stance instead of the Isosceles most others use. He's elite because he hits the target faster and more often (the object of practical pistol shooting).

An archer isn't elite because of his aiming system (insert any aiming technique you want). He's elite because he hits his intended target (the object of shooting the arrow in the first place).

That all I was saying. That's all I've ever said or believed. I can admire the Olympic recurve shooters pounding the tiny X-ring at 20 yards as much as an English Longbowman hitting a wand at 100 yards. It's the doing of it that matters, not how you do it.

Dave

[Martin Farrent]

Quite seriously, I believe we could turn rhust's thread into something better than back-patting and insinuations about lost souls. ;) We could do what he didn't continue and look at our own shortcomings.

I don't mean the 'elitism' or the 'missing in action', but simply some of the prejudices people seem to feel about this site. And some of the topics that may be missing - and why they aren't raised.

For example, Rico obviously feels we're fiercely anti-instinctive and probably also anti-wood. I'd really like to know why - in his own words. I mean, we have plenty of first-class bowyers and shooters here who don't or rarely touch a metal riser. Plenty of very good instinctive shooters too, if truth be known (I see rhust himself has taken six state titles). Most of them obviously feel at home here. But outside perception seems to be that it's a metal and gaps only site. Or am I taking too dismal a view of things?

Best,

Martin

[ahshoot]

Overall this site is excellent. To get at where rhust may have been coming from, there have been several memorable threads that focused heavily on the idea that instinctive either doesn't really exist or is inherently inaccurate. These threads were somewhat contentious. One thing that helps, I think is to not think in absolutes or pretend to know things that we really can't. For instance, we can say that instinctive isn't a good word, etc. but we can't really doubt someone's self-description of their shooting process because we aren't in their heads. Also, we can say that on average instinctive shooters have more trouble with long-range accuracy, but there likely exists an instinctive shooter out there who can out-shoot most gap shooters. Also, I find metal-risered, longer recurves, with a rest to be more accurate. Another person is best served by a longbow. In short, this is just a more detailed re-iteration of the idea to stay open-minded. I would also say it respects the boundaries of what is knowable.

[ahshoot]

Overall this site is excellent. To get at where rhust may have been coming from, there have been several memorable threads that focused heavily on the idea that instinctive either doesn't really exist or is inherently inaccurate. These threads were somewhat contentious. One thing that helps, I think is to not think in absolutes or pretend to know things that we really can't. For instance, we can say that instinctive isn't a good word, etc. but we can't really doubt someone's self-description of their shooting process because we aren't in their heads. Also, we can say that on average instinctive shooters have more trouble with long-range accuracy, but there likely exists an instinctive shooter out there who can out-shoot most gap shooters. Also, I find metal-risered, longer recurves, with a rest to be more accurate. Another person is best served by a longbow. In short, this is just a more detailed re-iteration of the idea to stay open-minded. I would also say it respects the boundaries of what is knowable.

[Martin Farrent]

I'm not sure about threads being contentious, Seth.

There might be a majority of participants that hold a certain opinion on a certain issue. But if you can argue coherently against that majority, I feel people here will respect you for it.

Well over a year ago, I started several threads arguing the possible (physical/optical) case for an aiming system I used to call "pointing" (possibly a type of split vision). People pointed out shortcomings I now see myself, but I didn't agree at the time and certainly didn't feel shouted down or ridiculed. My arguments were heard and addressed.

What I sometimes see is a seeming reluctance to respond to some posts - something a newcomer might wrongly take as judgmental on a thread he's just started. What some people may fail to realise is that members here possibly won't answer a question when they don't feel confident about it - unlike elsewhere and the shouts of general encouragement people get for buying a bow or trying to learn a certain aiming style. Here, only the people with specific experience will tend to answer. That takes some getting used to, if you're a fresh arrival from a chattier place like the LW.

But that intial silence doesn't just go for wooden recurves or instinctive shooting questions. As a stringwalker, I can post a problem and find myself waiting for an answer for quite a while - I generally only get one (on stringwalking) when a fellow stringwalker turns up and feels competent to respond. And as the recent poll showed, we're in a smaller minority than the instinctive shooters here. But useful answers have very rarely failed to materialise in the long run.

Best,

Martin

[Levyrat]

What I sometimes see is a seeming reluctance to respond to some posts - something a newcomer might wrongly take as judgmental on a thread he's just started. What some people may fail to realise is that members here possibly won't answer a question when they don't feel confident about it -

Martin

I resemble that remark.:) In the same note, as a newcomer, I don't really feel compelled to post because I honestly feel like I don't have much to contribute. I don't see that as a bad thing though. It is just the reality that I don't have the "know how" and experiences to offer anything to most of the threads here. I find this site, for me, is better suited to read and learn from. I would venture to guess that others with similar "limited" backgrounds exist here too.

Jason

[rhust]

I am glad to see that some members here are at least looking at this with an open mind, that is a good thing. It is ok with me if this is a more metal riser/gap site. Every style of shooting has its place. Everyone is different and different style appeal to different people. I started this thread merely as an observation. Sometimes the people here every day can not see how something is, or is perceived. I meant this thread more as an eye opener, or just to have its members really look at this board. If this is how the board wants to be perceived than so be it, if not how do we go about fostering different types of discussion? I will continue to come here and provide input when I can, but I will also go to other forums that I consider "different". They all have their place.

[ahshoot]

I'm not sure about threads being contentious, Seth.



Perhaps contentious is the wrong word. I meant that some opinions seemed to be given in terms of absolutes with insertion of sarcasm, etc.

[Martin Farrent]

Seth,

Maybe so. I deal out sarcasm at times and hope I can take some. For example, if someone cracked a casual joke about stringwalkers looking stupid (which they sometimes do, I think), I wouldn't take offense. I know I look a proper idiot at times when shooting.

@rhust: Going other places is fine, if you like. It would be good if you could keep this thread in mind, when there. Overall, I think you got treated candidly, with some mistrust but with respect, as you can expect. I've just read a couple of threads on another board, where two people got bashed obscenely - merely for asking sensitive questions. They remained roughly as civil as you have here, but didn't get the same reward.

Best,

Martin

[Silverback]

not sure if this fits here but , Rhust complained about old timers disappearing , I've been around the internet a long time and one thing is a fact of internet life , "OLD TIMERS" disappear , it happens in chat rooms and on forums , eventually they get burned out and their visits become less n less till they only stop in once in a while , the old faze out n the new faze in to replace em

[Lane Puckett]

I don't know that this place is a 'more metal riser/gap site'. I do know ILF limbs are really cool and tough to fit to a wood riser.

I also know a bunch of people shoot the longbow competitively using gap etc and they post on here.

We are back to the pursuit of accuracy without wheels and letoff.

I've seen some pretty cool thumb rings on here.

I love the beginner posts. Couple of reasons.
One is the help that is given is pretty good.
Second is some of those beginner posts are mine.

yep even with 30 plus years of bow bending under my belt there are still MANY things I'm hungry to learn about this sport. It never ceases to amaze me just how much a guy can pick up here.

Remember a rut is just a grave without the ends filled in.....so don't get stuck in one.

[rico]

So, how did David get to pick what was elite for everybody? Probably the same way you came to pick what's "elite" for everybody
I just wrote that in jest. But if David can pick, I pick anyone that is shooting traditional wooden recurves instincitively to be ELITE Hey that would be me,anyone else LOL. Seriously I do not consider instinctive to be elite but I do not consider metal risers to be traditional either. Both of those statements are my opinion and nothing more. Why would anyone have a problem with either statement.

[Esquire]

Rico,

You're a funny guy. :)

Last I checked, metal risered recurves lacked wheels.

And elite referred to accomplishments, not equipment.

Pretty sure neither has changed.

Everyone has the right to be wrong, but your true friends will point it out if they think your remarks have left the reservation...

Mike

[Martin Farrent]

Rico,

Do you want to bicker or not?

You essentially have three options:

- If you don't consider metal risers traditional, but don't want to bicker either, you don't have to go against your grain - just give them another name like "metal risers" and be done with it. As long as you don't confuse people by calling such bows "compounds" (unless they are), I don't see a problem. But if you insist on branding metal risers as non-traditional, even if that's just your opinion, you attract an unwanted argument with those that disagree with you. So why not just talk about the bows that are traditional in your view? You don't even need the t-word to do so, and the resulting discussion ought to be to your taste... without any undue conflict.

Or:

- Get the bickering out of your system. State your case (that metal risers are non-traditional) and reason it stringently for once... seeing that you've been itching to do so for years. If you've got anything beyond your simple preferences to express, I'm sure you can say it rationally and tell your side of the story in a way that provokes thought and response.

Or:

- Take the quarrel to a site that appreciates it and finds it necessary. There's alway some Lotho Baggins to set up a community dedicated to mischief unlimited (well, until Saruman takes over and decides which fights are legit). Most sites don't like these fights anymore, so I wouldn't place much hope in the mainstream ones. But you may find a new one in its 'fighting innocence', so to speak. Get in there fast, before your views are deemed unstrategic. Then come back here, relieved of the burden.

So it's a choice between letting it rest (here), arguing it out rationally (here) or having a pissing match about it (elsewhere, I urge). The fourth option is continue with your little jabs and get little jabs back... and so on.

Best,

Martin

[Papabull]

This site is one of the least contentious and most civil in the archery community. No one cares how anyone else aims. No one cares what bow anyone else shoots. Instinctive, gap, split vision, stringwalking, face walking, even sights? No problem. Longbow, Hybrid, Widow, DAS? No problem.

Think you're special because of your choice? THEN you have a problem. No one else wants to hear it. There's no worship of selfbows or instinctive shooting or metal riser recurves or stringwalking or anything else. There aren't any sacred scrolls and sacred verses. We are dedicated the SPORT of archery. Members have forums here where they can talk about whatever they want.

I don't know what you're really trying to "fix" or get people to see, rhust. Are you telling the members that they should be talking about different things? Are you trying to tell the members of this board that they're all talking about the "wrong" things? If you think there's not enough variety here, hey..... you're a member. You can post topics. So what's the real problem? It sounds like you've got some sort of criticism directed toward the members of this site. That much is obvious. But what exactly you think the members of this site should do or change to accommodate you more isn't very clear.

[rhust]

Papabull, I dont even know what to say in response to your post. I think saying nothing is the best option. It is not about me, it is about the new archers that come to this site. I will try to bring up different topics when I can, best to everyone.

[Pinelander]

I will continue to come here and provide input when I can, but I will also go to other forums that I consider "different". They all have their place.
Well rhust, that's mighty nice of you to offer up some input. Sure, no problem... other forums have their place, guess that's why there are there and we are here. Guess you will have to go there while you are awaiting specific actions to be taken in regard to your complaint. This is only the first Tuesday of the week, so you still have plenty of time to make sure your complaint form is filled out in it's entirety.

[Papabull]

Papabull, I dont even know what to say in response to your post. I think saying nothing is the best option. It is not about me, it is about the new archers that come to this site. I will try to bring up different topics when I can, best to everyone.

OK, you've piqued my curiosity. What about new archers that come to this site? Maybe I just haven't had enough coffee yet, but I'm not making the connection.

[Short Draw]

I just spent an enjoyable hour reading this thread.

Just a little history why I came here and enjoy this site.
I can here because of a link on the DAS Kinetic site.
I have never looked back. That was a year and a half ago.
The information that is available here is phenomenal.

Eight years ago I retired and started to build boats. I used to be on one of the largest kayak boards for a few months as a lurker and then a contributor.
All it took was a few posters to flame my suggestions and advice.
Their loss, I moved on.
Sometimes people move on because of new interests
.
New people coming here are welcomed with open arms. I like that.
Information is given freely. I learned a lot.
I made friends that I have kept in touch with and shot with at gatherings.
Can't ask for more than that.

Erich

[Martin Farrent]

The information that is available here is phenomenal.

Erich,

I can only repeat what I said about the search function. It's not so much about having a good search tool on the site, but about having data to sieve that is largely uncorrupted by trivial BS. At a pinch, a new archer could get away without buying a book - just by coming here and studying the archives. I don't think there's a single other barebow site fitting that description.

Best,

Martin

[rico]

This thread is moving way to fast for me I don't have the time to keep up and respond maybe a little later. Cheers

[Martin Farrent]

Not too slow then, Rico?

Hey, you just said something nice about us! :)

Best,

Martin

[rico]

Hey, you just said something nice about us! Where when did I ever not?
There is nothing negative about not being traditional or instinctive Martin.

[rico]

Last I checked, metal risered recurves lacked wheels.
Esquire, if thats all you need to fill your definition of traditional is a no wheels so be it I tend to see it different.
I read a statement,perhaps it was an add discribing a metal riser as a new higher level in Traditional Archery . How can something be taken to the next level and still be the same unchanged,traditional?

Tagging someone as elite is something that I have seen done to instinctive shooters by none instinctive shooters. I don't recall any instinctive shooter that truely views himself that way.
The same as you are tagged as Neo Trad if you don't agree with someone elses definition.

[Papabull]

Some people don't think metal risers are traditional. Some don't think carbon arrows are traditional. Some don't think shooting off a rest is traditional. Some even go so far as to say that only instinctive shooting off a shelf with wooden arrows is traditional. People can have their own notion of what's traditional to them and that's no big deal. Heck, I don't care of someone feels that you have to hack down your own stave with a stone axe and shape it with hunks of flint in order for it to be traditional. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Mine is that a recurve or longbow is traditional whether it's got high tech polymer finishes and epoxies, resins, fiberglass, carbon, foam or metal in it. No letoff. One string. Standard recurve configuration.... so what if the handle is made of metal or polymer instead of pressure treated plywood.

[Papabull]

Hey, you just said something nice about us! Where when did I ever not?
There is nothing negative about not being traditional or instinctive Martin.

:smash: Traditional... what's in a word, huh? Arguing what's traditional is a source of perpetual fun, right?

[rico]

Okay with all of that PB but how can someone go on to say how much better their performance has been enhanced with carbon,foam or metal,from traditional epoxies, resins, fiberglass, I have never read where any of these actually enhanced shooting.

[rico]

LOL good one PB :inst
Instinctive... what's in a word, huh? Arguing what's instinctive is a source of perpetual fun, right?

[Pinelander]

Gee, I think I'm beginning to a see a pattern. Gosh, this site is just too slanted towards them thare metal-type bows.

Yeah, that's it.... What's so great about metal risers? (http://www.tradtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11134&highlight=hype)

[Scooter]

Rico huh?

The line one draws at how much is enough is a personal one. Some guys stop at fiberglass and wood arrows. Some self bows and self arrows. Still others anything short of "wheels".

What does it matter and what of it is so threatening to people? You don't get a better seat in heaven because you "did it the hard way."

Really these conversations are so ridiculous. I have neither the time nor inclination to try and regulate or insinuate what is or isn't traditional.

[Pinelander]

Rico, some folks probably disagree with your version of "traditional" because they were shooting and bowhunting with metal riser bows long before the currently popular definiton (or redefinition) of traditional ocurred in the early 80's.

[Pinelander]

I've not been surprised in recent years that when I bowhunt with a metal riser bow compared to that of a wooden bow.... my experiences afield have not changed a bit. I hunt the way I've always hunted. I enjoy the hunt the way I've always enjoyed the hunt. I kill deer the same way I've always killed deer. Must be something I'm missing about this metal vs. wood thing... I don't get it. Care to explain Rico?

[Papabull]

LOL good one PB :inst
Instinctive... what's in a word, huh? Arguing what's instinctive is a source of perpetual fun, right?

Well, I think those days are pretty much over. Things had to be worked out so that we could finally all come to grips on a few things.

1. We all aim somehow.
2. Whether you use the arrow to aim or not is your business and no one will ever really know but you.
3. People use whatever aiming method works best for them, as they should because....
4. Your skill as an archer is measured by your shooting, not by your aiming.

Now that all those things finally got worked out and we don't have people thumping their chests about something as silly as what's the most respectable, correct and righteous aiming method (why, their own, of course!) then there's no need to dissect things farther. I feel that a lot of progress has been made to get us to this point and now it's peace and harmony everywhere. Isn't that nice? :)

[rico]

I'm sure they do Piney, the early '80's You would have not found many to agree that metal were trad back then.
What was the definition before the '80's there was no trad definition but it soon came to mean wooden riser bows metal was for compounds

[Papabull]

I'm sure they do Piney, the early '80's You would have not found many to agree that metal were trad back then.
What was the definition before the '80's there was no trad definition but it soon came to mean wooden riser bows metal was for compounds

So all the metal riser Bear recurves aren't traditional? The old Pearson metal riser recurves and Wing and Black Widow and Groves are all "not traditional". Hey, what you consider traditional is your business but you're back to trying to define what's traditional for the entire sport and not just yourself. So you're wandered out of the realm of your personal opinion and into just plain wrong.

[Pinelander]

So then, what do you call those fellas who have been bowhunting with metal riser recurves before the 80's and on up through today, Rico? Metal heads or some such thing? :p

Apparently you don't care to answer my question regarding what's the diff in bowhunting between that of a metal recurve or a wooden recurve, and additionally why should anybody care?

[Papabull]

Since this has become yet another philosophical debate, I'm moving it to the philosophy forum.

[Pinelander]

What took you so long? It was philosophical from the git go. :D

What was the title of this thread????

I need :help: .... this board isn't my cup of tea. :crymeariv

[Martin Farrent]

Since this has become yet another philosophical debate, I'm moving it to the philosophy forum.

Not really philosophical, Robert. But it had its moments.

We did touch the "Lumpenproletariat" (Marx). More on that here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenproletariat

@Rico: If there was no trad definition when things were trad, why accept a new one that is wrong? Are you looking for substance or a cool word to use?

Best,

Martin

[Ifish]

I like blue. Blue is the best color in the whole world. IMO

Anybody up for a debate?

[Papabull]

Blue is a simple primary color. Green is much nicer, more subtle and infinitely more soothing to the eye. I can't believe anyone would favor blue over green.

[Scooter]

Are you guys kidding? Red says, "look at me I'm cool I'm fast".

[Martin Farrent]

Red's communist, Scott. I remember when it wasn't. Up until 1848. It was nice then.

Best,

Martin

[rico]

PB how is you telling me what is traditional anymore defining then me saying what isn't traditional?
I don't feel those Metal Heads have to be labeled anything but Metal Head is as good as anything LOL.
If you want to label them traditional so be it.
Sorry I can't spend more time with this at the moment.

[Papabull]

PB how is you telling me what is traditional anymore defining then me saying what isn't traditional?
I don't feel those Metal Heads have to be labeled anything but Metal Head is as good as anything LOL.
If you want to label them traditional so be it.
Sorry I can't spend more time with this at the moment.

How is me telling you what's traditional any different than you running around telling others that what they're shooting isn't?

See, there's an important notice listed with this forum reading: IMPORTANT: In these forums, shooting techniques, target shooting, FITA, stump shooting, bowhunting, and everything else related to traditional archery equipment and shooting are discussed. If it's got one string and no wheels, it's traditional and we're not going to argue about it.


It's different because I don't accept your exlusive snobbery here, Rico. It's different because I'm not being rude to you by telling you that all recurves and longbows are traditional but you're being rude to me and my members by declaring that what they shoot isn't. So you're not going to run around this place mouthing off about what "aint traditional". If you don't think metal risers are traditional enough to suit you, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it, but you'll have to keep it to yourself or go somewhere else to shout out your frustrations with what other people are shooting and what they're calling it.

That's the difference. You're smart enough to understand that and I'm surprised you had to ask but now that you did and now that you got what I consider a very clear answer on it, I feel confident we've put this nonsense behind us.

[Desert Archer]

The same as you are tagged as Neo Trad if you don't agree with someone elses definition.

and

I don't feel those Metal Heads have to be labeled anything but Metal Head is as good as anything LOL.

How is it he gets to be offended by "Neo Trad" but I'm supposed to take "Metal Head" as just kidding around?

PB, can this whole thing be put out of its misery? Please!!

Dave

[Papabull]

You're right, DA. I'm locking it down. It's been mostly pot stirring, anyway.