Zen and archery

[Martin Farrent]

Don't get me wrong: I'm all in favour of borrowing worthwhile concepts from other cultures... if only to understand them better, but also because worthwhile concepts are.... well, worthwhile.

That said: One can also take things out of context to an extent that they lose their sense. And one can unwittingly ridicule them by doing so.

Zen occurs to me. It's a form of Buddhism, I believe. And as such, not originally an exercise in bolstering worldly success. (I'm not very religious myself, but my understanding is that most religions are about things beyond trivial ambition.)

If I were a Zen Buddhist, I think I'd feel offended by people who attempted to exploit my philosophy as a tool... e.g. to improve their archery. More importantly, I would think them rather silly for supposing that you could strip it down to something as pragmatic as a 'technique'.

Yes, I know there's a link between archery and Zen elsewhere in the world. But my information has it that genuine Zen archers are Zen first, and then become archers in that spirit. To them, archery is a (not very significant) means to a totally different end. Whereas some in Western archery seem to think that Zen is there to ennoble their shooting and improve it along the way... which is the very opposite of the original idea.

It amuses me sometimes. And sometimes it annoys me. Not that I have much time for Zen myself. And not that I invariably respect other people's beliefs. And not that I'm religious (as I noted above). But I find such shallow exploitation of other cultures' philosophies slightly undignified.

Best,

Martin

[ROD JENKINS]

Yeah, I never could get on board, with the line of thinking that equates archery to some mystical power. In my world, archery is simply knowing your job and success is simply doing your job on each and every shot.

[Martin Farrent]

In my world, archery is simply knowing your job and success is simply doing your job on each and every shot.

Rod, that's another interesting aspect you touch.

Have you ever noticed how the 'Zen' guys seem to avoid structured practice and hope for some mental revelation instead? "Laziness" is probably the wrong word, since a few appear to shoot a lot. But between the lines of their posts on some boards, one somehow detects a lack of discipline and method, which (by all accounts) isn't the case with true Zen archers in the Far East. On that note: I wonder how many of our Western mystics would enjoy the rigours of authentic Zen training. They hardly strike me as the fellas to spend months preparing to release their very first arrow. ;)

Best,

Martin

[Rednef]

Philosophy is the study of 3 basic questions. What is the nature of existence (reality)? What comprises appropriate behavior for people? What is an apprpriate form of government? Philosophy is a mental "tool" to begin with, and it is meant to achieve certain goals. (How successfully those goals are achieved is of course part of the debate.)
Is it wrong to find a new use for a tool? Zen meditation is one aspect of Zen and Buddhism. Is using it to achieve a specific goal truly disrespectful, or is it an acknowledgement of how powerful that tool is? The real answer to that probably resides in the heart of the practioner.
As an analogy it may be a stretch but think about this; electronics engineers use a tool called a digital storage oscilloscope. I am a car mechanic. Am I disrespecting and dragging down the technical discipline of electronics when I use a digital storage oscilloscope?
Anyway, for me, the Zen of traditional archery occurs when during a well executed shot, and for an all too brief moment, awareness of Self disappears.
What can I say? Zen happens.
Rednef. Human being. Tool user, and proud of it!

[Martin Farrent]

Is using it to achieve a specific goal truly disrespectful, or is it an acknowledgement of how powerful that tool is? The real answer to that probably resides in the heart of the practioner.

Well, you sound pretty sincere yourself, I'll admit...

Others, I'm sorry, tend to remind me of people who don't know a word of Italian - except for the three they routinely brandish in pizza parlours.

... awareness of Self disappears.

Now, why that is 'Zen' will forever escape me, I suppose. I've got lost in things I've found intriguing since childhood, or rather especially in childhood... sometimes for minutes on end. Intense concentration on one thing simply reduces the amount of focus left for anything else (like daily life's current concerns). To me, it doesn't seem worth glorifying with a spiritual label.

Best,

Martin

[Desert Archer]

If you substitute "the Force" for "Zen" the conversations (not Rednef's but the ones Martin is referring to) sound the same. That makes it hard for me to take it seriously, but that's just my personal take on it.

From my frame of reference if you can't define it, describe it and repeat it...it's just luck.

Dave

[Rednef]

One of the goals of Zen Buddhism is to achieve a state of being called "Nirvana." One of the things that supposedly happens in Nirvana is a total loss of Self. The ultimate state of tranquility. Do I claim to achieve a state of Nirvana when I shoot for practice? No. But I do know that it can be very tranquil and relaxing when I sometimes get it right. For a brief moment I am truly not there. That might be why some consider Archery to be somewhat Zen in nature.
And then there are those who are looking for some way to be more cool than anybody else. With out skill, knowledge or experience they pick a label that seems to make them unique.
I know what I know, and I know what I feel. However at the same time you're not going to see me running around while turkey hunting or at the range blathering on about how freakin' Zen I feel that day.
Any way I get the feeling that those who lack discipline and who are insincere are the ones who you are referring to.

[Martin Farrent]

From my frame of reference if you can't define it, describe it and repeat it...it's just luck.

Dave,

I added the emphasis in the above quote, because I think repetition is the pivotal aspect.

Yes, a certain state of mind sometimes combines with unfathomed other factors in the course of a shot better than one is commonly capable of. But no, if you can't repeat it, the value is very limited. Or rather: If you can't work out how to repeat it with any degree of reliability, then you must assume it's not going to happen very often.

It's also a chicken and egg issue: Is the mental state actually generating the sudden skill, or is the mental state just a case of shooting 'feeling right', because the physical variables are coming together in an unusually efficient way and the human computer acknowledges it?

Many in the 'Zen' faction ignore this question and automatically attribute a personally phenomenal shot to the mental state accompanying it. And I suspect they also fail to register how often the mental state occurs, yet the shot's success falls short of it. Therefore viewing the mental/'spiritual' aspect as the pivotal one, they conclude that practice is probably about making the desired state of mind occur more frequently. Yet there's no systematic way to practice 'feeling right' anyway, and so the notion condemns them to unsystematic practice... though I believe some of them actually welcome that.

@Rednef: Your assessment is right, I think. Donning the trappings of other culture's religions has been variously 'cool' throughout history. It was 'cool' in Ancient Rome around the time Christianity arose, and it has currently been 'cool' in the West since the 1950's or 60's - which shows that it's a pretty durable trend, at least.

As an agnostic, I find it hard to assume that very many people are sincere about the actual (foreign) beliefs they adopt, though their search for belief per se may indeed be authentic (but often isn't, I suspect). I'm not saying that becoming a true Buddhist is impossible for Westerners, but my own experience is one of finding it hard enough to understand our own inherited religion of Christianity. And if I can't really even grasp that, deeply rooted in our culture as it is, how am I supposed to understand a belief system that grew on very different soil? The value of 'self', for example, is viewed quite diversely in various societies. A Westerner seeking to abandon it is rejecting a pillar of his or her inherited culture - and is probably somehow at odds with the environment. Conversely in some Asian countries, the shedding of 'self' is regarded as living society's exisiting standards to perfection. Being a Buddhist monk in Tibet is very conventionalist, don't forget.

Best,

Martin

[Martin Farrent]

P.S.: One important aspect of espousing other cultures' religious beliefs is that people generally do so because they find a 'foreign' philosophy intellectually attractive. For example, some environmentalists adopt what they perceive as the religious beliefs of Native Americans... and the result often borders on satire, because these people (sincere as they may be!) are seeking a preconception of their own in a place they don't really know.

Best,

Martin

[Grizzly]

Hi Martin, glad to see you back, though I must admit you do make my head hurt sometimes. lol. Tracking with you is like exersizing. Wish I had done more of it, just as I wish I had trained my brain better all through life. I guess I'm just either lazy in those respects (probably) or else I just never allowed myself to realize how important it was. I also suspect that some are truly more gifted than others when it comes to critical thinking.

Some of the better shooters I've met have had the ability to remember minor details very well, where pretty good at controlling and managing their lives. For instance one excellent shot I know was a trained military sniper. I once helped him find the hold needed on a bowling pin at 100 yards with a standard loaded .38 in a short barelled single action. Once he found it, he duplicated it once or twice and then stored it away in his brain. A week later at a rifle shoot, when guys where missing he called them all something very unflattering and said he could hit that with a pistol, when they started snickering, I just rolled my eyes. Now he was an accomplished shot as in Rod Jenkins post, but he had that ability to remember details, which I would suspect 90%+ of the traditional shooters I've observed don't.

He also is the person who first described the slow motion state we can enter when focus becomes accute, shutting out unnecessary stimulations and distractions, but at the same time hightening awareness of your essential surroundings. Very much unlike tunnel vision that limits and locks you up to an extent even though you are very focused on something. I'm not into Zen, only read small amounts of it, and don't think again that many people in life ever truly master much, esp these altered states that can be entered. But I do believe they exist, that they leave you in one of those "whew, what was that" states afterward. I also know that afterwards there is a lingering calmness or euphoria that you don't want to end.

Can it be duplicated for archery? Maybe with a devoted disciplined regimen.
Find that site that our Korean coach has. I think his name is Kisik Lee. I read it once, and the state of awareness he enters or describes reminds me of the time I thought I might die and experienced very accute memory and sensory memory of family members. Most people I know, myself included lack the discipline to clear our minds of junk clutter, music and wondering thoughts. Although many years ago I did work at it, felt I accomplished a milestone for me of learning to be aware of what goes through our mind and finally not being led by the nose by every distraction, but observing them, without focusing on them, the mind becomes clearer and probably more useable.

Unfotunately as a society, most people just ignore or don't even know of this aspect of life.

[Martin Farrent]

Craig,

I'm very impressed by most of Kisik Lee's work.

Mind you, I don't think "the zone" and "Zen" are the same thing - not for us Westerners, at least. The "zone" is a Western-style description for something that is basically only a function or mode of the human brain. "Zen" is an Eastern way of achieving (perhaps) that mode.

My argument (though I admit it's probably just a personal preference) would be that we are all best served by approaching such phenomena on our own turf, so to speak: from the familiar point of view of our own cultures. There's no rejection of other cultures in that belief. I just think it's the fastest way there.

Best,

Martin

[Grizzly]

Martin, I agree and think that last paragraph of yours was very well put.

[Larry Hatfield]

shig honda spent several days at our shop in the seventies, and while he was here, demonstated zen archery to us.
he used the traditional bow and arrows and only looked at the target once, before he shot. the control he had of his body, the bow, and the shot was very impressive.
he wrote a couple of books that were very good also.

[Martin Farrent]

Larry,

Do you see (as I do) a difference between 'them' doing it and 'us' trying to emulate it?

Best,

Martin

[Larry Hatfield]

sure do!
what shig demonstrated was kyudo, which is a martial arts form.
sometimes people seem a little confused and confuse zen buddhism with kyudo.
one is a form of religion and the other is a martial art complete with sensei's.
in kyudo, the credo is to not hit the target but lose the self.
when i'm shooting poorly i just make martial art noises and tell the people helping find my arrows that i might have lost the arrow, but i still have my "self".
a new excuse for archery.

[Bowlim]

The link in the west between Zen and archery is the book, "Zen in the Art of Archery". The purpose of that book was to explain Zen, which is regarded as being essentially impossible. If you have ever seen some movie that starts with a student saying "master..." and ends with him getting slapped, you have seen an example of the Zen can't be explained school of thinking. Notwitstanding, that's what the book attempts. It was both a good attempt, and it is an excellent archery book.

It is often said over here that Buddhism isn't a religion. I'm skeptical on that point knowing a tiny fraction of it's practice elsewhere, but the Buddha was not supernatural and the practice is not divorced from every day life since it is only there that happiness will be found. The Dalai Lama has said that it is possible Eastern aspects of B. will not survive western investigation, and if true there is no problem discarding those aspects... So worry about whether it is being used for a temporal purpose are wholly un-necessary. Though a worry of whether it is misunderstood is logical, since it can't be understood.

Zen Buddhism has a long history of being turned to marshal purposes. This is a little creepy, but at some level it makes sense. Buddhists tend towards pacifism, so that would be a bump in the road, but if one lived in a situation where marshal values where the order of the day, then finding some way to be whole in that circumstance seems reasonable. Zen was turned heavily to that purpose and explains a lot to do with the Japanese military tradition.

[stantond]

Zen, from my understanding, is incorporating physical positions to help with self-awareness. The idea being similar to yoga used in meditation. Several links have been made, whether correctly or not, between Zen martial arts and yoga. Both have some similarities.

The notion of Zen and archery, again from my understanding, is to use archery as a technique for meditation. Specifically focusing on each aspect of the shot sequence then becomes part of a meditative technique. Hitting the target may or may not be a goal, but could be a feedback tool to evaluate how well you are performing the meditation. The idea is similar to other martial arts where form is the goal and meditation through the focus on form links enlightenment using the process much like yoga.

It's a perspective on how to shoot a bow. Going through a shot sequence can be a meditative experience. This comes from Eastern culture thinking.

However, it can just as easily be a sequence of motions that are practiced. Much like sitting on the floor cross legged breathing slowly can be yoga, or just sitting uncomfortably on the floor. It all depends on the goal and focus.


Stan

[DelSnavely]

I'm new to the trad archery places on the web and fairly new to archery, so I hope to learn from many of you in the future. I had a bow as a child and got pretty good with it on my own, but only recently have I gotten back into trad archery.

That said: I believe Zen to be a "feeling" from within that monks seek. That feeling from within is what I seek upon every arrow flung. Every time I let loose an arrow, I know at the split second that I release that the arrow will land "exactly" where I wanted it, if I get that feeling. Every time I get that feeling, my arrow lands within a quarter sized spot or will slide along the last arrow I was looking at to hit. I don't get this feeling often, but when it happens, I know I'm dead on target before the arrow reaches it. I don't know what else to call it other than Zen. It's that exact feeling that I want every shot, but I have no real idea what it is or why it happens.

Del S.

[Dartwick]

If I were a Zen Buddhist, I think I'd feel offended by people who attempted to exploit my philosophy as a tool... e.g. to improve their archery.




Thats because you dont understand Zen Buddhism.

[rusty craine]

I don't know about Zen but I shoot better when I listen to Mozart.

ahhh not the opera though :)

rusty

[SteveD]

I read where the author of the "Zen and the Art of Archery" later became a Nazi,will stick to form,practice and matched gear for my approach at the present time.

[Larry Hatfield]

after the first buddha, several sects spread that have nothing to do with the original purpose. following is why some believe it is not a religion in the western meaning of that word.

What Buddhism IS NOT:

A religion specializes in making rituals or ceremonies
A religion specializes in magick
A religion only to reach superhuman state
A religion that supports the view of One God
A religion that promotes material gains and supports material views
A religion that promotes music and songs (including singing and acting)
A religion that relies on unique artifacts (such as magical necklace, beads, etc)
A religion that supports mass advertising, mindless preaching, and making businesses.
A religion that relies on a "Savior" to save us all from the mass of suffering.
A religion that condemns non-believers or non-followers to Hell.
A religion that assigns chief authority to a single person or group (e.g. Pope, Vantican, etc.) after the Buddha had passed away. (since doing so gives rise to potential status quo problem, false claims of the Buddha status, and various other reasons)
A religion that believes chanting mantras (sacred words), performing ceremonial rites, practising self-motification (such as walking on fire, going naked, fasting, etc.), practicing singleness of mind (Samadhi meditation), etc., can achieve enlightenment.

What Buddhism IS:

A religion, as a set of practices, to achieve peace
A religion, as a set of practices, to achieve bliss
A religion, as a set of practices, to conquer the mind
A religion, as a set of practices, to achieve right concentration
A religion, as a set of practices, to attain Nibbana
A religion, as a set of practices, to achieve right mindfulness
A religion, as a set of practices, to achieve perfect morality

[Dartwick]

Although with Zen Buddhism I think the idea is to use the "practices" only to move beyond the practices in the search for understanding.

[Larry Hatfield]

"In distinction to many other Buddhist sects, Zen de-emphasizes reliance on religious texts and verbal discourse on metaphysical questions. Zen holds that these things lead the practitioner to seek external answers, rather than searching within themselves for the direct intuitive apperception of Buddha-nature. This search within goes under various terms such as “introspection,” “a backward step,” “turning-about,” or “turning the eye inward.”

In this sense, Zen, as a means to deepen the practice and in contrast to many other religions, could be seen as fiercely anti-philosophical, iconoclastic, anti-prescriptive and anti-theoretical."

quoted from a prominant zen site. the zen sect came about very early on in china, spread rapidly, and was modified by local custom and belief from country to country. there are several different "zen" disciplines in the world just as there are several forms of christian beliefs.

[Dartwick]

Yes suspect we I think were more or less in agreement than it might initially appear. As I understand it one uses a understanding and acceptance of the practice(whatever it may be physically)as to door into a more vast understanding and acceptance.

I was just turning a bit of focus to Zen Buddhism specifically, in light of the threads subject.

[Sam Dunham]

I encountered Zen with a Martial arts instructor 20 years ago. I now have it as a focused mind, not disrupted by other thoughts or distractions, Centered. Reaxed state of mind which stays in the moment and is able to deal with an encounter not anticipated with no emotional states exhibited. All boils down to a controlled and healthy mind which is able to focus in the unfolding events of a second, a moment or an hour without anxiuos anticipation. See my signature. I am a Christian so I do not aspire to Buddist belief, but do understand the method and its application. Overall a pretty good way to live, but not my cup.

[Zeno's Arrow]

Martin, I agree with your observation with regard to westerners' contradictory attitudes toward other cultures; we claim to value them for their own sake and we appropriate them for our sake. We try to escape ourselves but we make "them" into "us." What attitude a practitioner of Zen might have toward this appropriation, I can't say. Thanks for the thoughts.

[theweswillard]

If you substitute "the Force" for "Zen" the conversations (not Rednef's but the ones Martin is referring to) sound the same. That makes it hard for me to take it seriously, but that's just my personal take on it.

From my frame of reference if you can't define it, describe it and repeat it...it's just luck.

Dave

The force is strong with this one.

[Rick Harrelson]

I have done a fair amount of reading on this topic. My first encounter with this topic was a small book called "Inner Sport." The author described the western version as being "In the Zone." I read "Zen in the Art of Archery," and "Zen in the Marshall Arts." What I remember is "Pure action without thought." I also remember "Let the mind be like the moon's reflection on the the stream, the water goes by, but the image stays."

In the movie, "Top Gun" Tom C's character states that there is no time to think about what to do in a given situation. Of course he gets "shot down."

During a sword fight, there is no time to think about how to counter attack; your body has to know or you die. They practice with their sword until it became, not a sword, but an extension of their arm.

I would imagine if we had marshal law like they had back then, zen (or a substitute) would be more prominent again.

There are a lot of analogies out there that try to describe the topic, but none can fully explain it. Many want to reach this point quickly, but the masters will tell you that it is a lifetime pursuit. "How long will I need to practice? For ever."
Which leads me to the westerner trying to achieve this state; our lifestyle makes it difficult.

Try to start meditating and one will find out how difficult it is to stay focused on one thing (usually breathing). That is why they call it a discipline.

Like Sam said, "Not my cup." It does make for interesting reading though.

[owlmagnet]

I have enjoyed this thread for quite awhile and I'm happy to see it awakened. In Herrigel's, "Zen in the Art of Archery", he talks about the sword at the end of the book. In Musashi's, "Book of Five Rings", one of Japan's greatest swordsmen alludes to the bow. Since April of this year, I have been taking regular classes in both Taekwondo and the Katana in an effort to explore any potential cross-correlation between archery and these other highly refined, traditional martial arts.

Seven months of training is far too little to make a definitive assessment, but for what it's worth, my archery--particularly with my Howard Hill longbow--seems to be improving at an ever increasing rate and I wonder if the other martial arts inform my archery. I also wonder if my archery informs the other martial arts.... I think it may.

Rick Harrelson is certainly correct. In a sword fight, there are moments where thinking about what you are going to do before you do it is going to get you hurt. One must act intuitively--not so much "without thought", as without "conscious consideration". I don't presume to be able to explain the unexplainable, but I think this notion of "Zen" has much to do with the complete integration of mind, body, and spirit in an action which requires a different, call it a "post cognitive", way of processsing information and translating it into immediate action, liberated from the fear and doubt which characterizes "self-consciousness". I think there definitely is a useful application of this "post cognitive process" to traditional archery. I will continue to explore it.