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View Full Version : New guy in town; and a question about arrows


Gonçalo
03-20-2005, 03:02 PM
Hello everybody
Limbwalker directed me to this forum. I think I should start by introducing myself.
I am Portuguese, 59 years old, live in Lisbon. My first experience with "real" bows was at 16 when I bought a 28# American flatbow and a set of wooden arrows (I still have that bow hanging on my wall), but I only started to learn how to properly use a bow nine years ago when I went into olympic style archery (style, not level unfortunately). I shoot basically for relaxing and for fun, and as time went by I found out that a sport as structured as olympic archery was somehow loosing part of its appeal and I have been drifting into traditional archery to find again the fun and relaxing I got from archery some years ago.

I recently bought a 35# Martin X-200 and on first shooting it some problems arose. Sorry, this is bound to be a longish post!

My basic data:
My olympic bow is a 66" Hoyt Radian recurve, 37# on the fingers at full draw. I draw 28" to the back of the bow, so I expect to be pulling close to 35# with the X-200.
My first idea was to shoot off the shelf, but after reading through the Trad Talk archives I decided I would probably be better off with some sort of elevated rest. As the window cut-out in the X-200 is not very deep I chose not to use a plastic rest, as they are usually a bit thick, but put on a thin leather strike plate to get a reasonable center-shot, and built something similar to the limbsaver rest Limbwalker described some time ago. String is 12 strands of whatever comes with the X-200 (Dacron???), served with Diamondback.

I intended to shoot some Easton X7s with 86 grain NIBB points and 4" feathers wich I used to shoot indoors some years ago and which worked well out of the Radian. Although these arrows, at 27.5" overall, are a little too short for my present draw, I expected them not to turn out too bad from the X-200, as after all it is nominally just 2# short of the Radian.

Well, they seem to come out of the X-200 much too weak.
There is a heavy arrow mark on the center of the strike plate, on shooting there is a loud slap on the bow and the leather covering on the rest started
peeling from being stricken by the forward tip of the lower feather - these show a mark too. The flight is awfull even with the fletched arrows, and I dammaged two perfectly good bare-shafts in the process (and never shot at over 20 yards...)

My first assumption is that a 60" 35# recurve has probably much better cast than a 66" 37# one, and that these arrows behave weak because of that. I don't know if the arrows being too short also has something to do with the slap - the point standing about .5"-.75" inside the window at full draw probably doesn't help either.

The thing is, I am at a loss now about what shafts to use, as up to now the shaft selection charts have always worked well for me with the kind of bows I have been using. But at my draw and pull all of them suggest the 2012 or 1916 size, which I have seen to be too weak even with 86 grain points.

I want a shaft length of 28.5"-29", and intend to use RPS inserts so I can play with different points. As one of the points I intend to use are the Judo, I will assume basic point weight to be around 125 grain, plus 30 grain for the insert. I intend to use 4"-5" feathers. I don't expect to shoot at over 50 yards with this bow, probably 35 yards or under most of the time. No hunting, at least for the time being.

Can anyone comment on this and offer suggestions about a shaft size to use with these specifications? Or perhaps know someone who has similar specs to mine and let me know what they shoot? Any help would be much appreciated.

Sorry for such a bother on my first post, but I felt I should give Limbwalker a break, I really have been pestering him too much! :)

Gonçalo

mysticguido
03-20-2005, 03:19 PM
Arrows by Kelly (http://www.arrowsbykelly.com/Spine_Charts.html)

try this link for arrows. and get 1 size lighter and 1 size heavyer and bare shaft test them till you get a good flying arrow for your bow(s)

Gonçalo
03-20-2005, 03:33 PM
Thanks, I had done that. When no point weight is specified it still suggests the 1916, which is not that much stiffer than the 2012, so I still don't feel too confident (and I would rather not buy a lot of different arrow sizes for testing, my wallet got empty with the X-200 buy...)

mysticguido
03-20-2005, 03:37 PM
ok try this one Easton Arrow Chart (http://home.att.net/~sajackson/eastonchart.html) use the recurve and minus 5# for long bow

Viper
03-20-2005, 03:57 PM
Gonçalo -

Sorry for the short answer, 1816s.

Actually, they should be your best bet on either bow. I trained a few folks with the x-200 in the #35 - #40 range. The all were sold 1916s, and all either had poor flight charactoristics, or just painfully slow arrows. 1816's, which are pretty classic for that weight range, solved the problem.

BTW - I'm currently shooting 29" 1816 from ORs up to #44, with proper tuning, (ok, that's pushing it, a little). Nice arrow.

Viper out.

Cato
03-20-2005, 04:04 PM
First of all, it is totally cool to have another archer join us from far away. This is one of the wonderful things about the internet. Welcome. We look forward to getting to know you.

Please be patient. Many of the good archers here are not onsite at the present, as it is on the weekend. But someone will come along and offer some thoughts.

All of my own set ups have been in the neighborhood of 45# to 50# at my draw length, so I do not have much experience with the shafts you are looking at. But I believe one cause of slap on the riser can be an overspined arrow. The arrow can be too stiff, not bend as it needs to, and can strike the plate rather hard, and then bounce out to the outside of the shelf giving the impression it is under spined. If you can do it easily, you might add some serious point weight and just shoot a bare shaft from close distance, just to see if it gets any better.

Again, welcome, and hang in there.

1bjd
03-20-2005, 04:13 PM
1816 should be the answer. With as heavy a point as you want. Should do well with judos. I shoot 1916 28 1/2" arrows with all my 45-52# recurves and they work with up to 145 grain points. At 40# I shoot 1816 with field tips or 1814 with nibb points. Good luck :2cents: John

Papabull
03-20-2005, 05:05 PM
If you wanted to go with carbons, something the Redline 690's might be just the thing for you with 4" fletch. I've had 28" 690's fly great up to 45 pounds with 80 grains, which should put them just about perfect for you with 125's.

If aluminum is your preference, I agree with the good advice given by some of the other knowledgable archers already - 1816's are usually a good choice for bows between 35 and 40 pounds with full draw lengths.

Desert Archer
03-20-2005, 05:18 PM
I shoot basically for relaxing and for fun, and as time went by I found out that a sport as structured as olympic archery was somehow loosing part of its appeal and I have been drifting into traditional archery to find again the fun and relaxing I got from archery some years ago.

I'm not going to suggest arrows but rather take another tack (direction) based on your statement above. Since you want to "...find again the fun..." why not give Arco Nudo a try. Simply take the sight and stabilizers off your 66" Olympic recurve and shoot it barebow. Arco Nudo is actually more popular in Europe than here in the States. You also might look into FITA Field shooting. It is about as much fun as you can have with a bow and arrows (LOL) and again, it is very popular across the pond.

Just something else to consider...and welcome to TradTalk. It's a great community to be part of.

Dave

Pinelander
03-20-2005, 06:12 PM
Gonçalo -
Nice to have you with us. Welcome!

My first thought for your X-200 was 1813 or 1814, because I always thought the 1816 tuned best with 40-45#.

But... Viper knows best, and I'm not kidding! :)

What size Easton X7s were you shooting out of your Radian?

Holmes
03-20-2005, 07:59 PM
I'm shooting full length 1916s from a M-Hunter that draws 40#@28" (not yet scaled). Factory Flemish Dacron string. My draw is 29.75". I would guess I'm seeing 43-44# out of this bow. Fletching is 4" feathers RH, mild helical.

I've played with field points ranging from 65-125 grains. They're flying good, but not perfect. I've thought about trying a few 1816s and seeing what they do when bareshafted.

Being new to this sport, I'm not sure I'm shooting consistent enough yet to isolate arrow flight indications as they pertain to spine/weight.

At 25+ yards where you can really watch flight behaviour, my imperfect draw is giving me occasional elevation fliers. Going to try training with a clicker for a while and get these old muscles trained up and consistent.

Right now, I think the 1916s are right in the ballpark for me and my bow but as I get better, I certainly intend to experiment further.

Luck to ya.

-Holmes

Viper
03-21-2005, 06:05 AM
Holms -

if you're shooting full lenght shafts (32") then 1816s would probably be too soft. Also, if that bow is 10 -12 years old, add #5 to the draw weight. Martin had serious scale problems in the early 90's. All their bows came out heavier than marked.

Viper out.

Gonçalo
03-21-2005, 02:22 PM
Thank you all very much for your help. Indeed, it came much faster than I expected :)
I am a bit surprised about the suggestion for the 1816 (after all, it is a weaker shaft than the 2012) but I may have it figured all wrong. I'll trust your guidance and buy some shafts for testing. I'll let you know - it may take some time, as my available time for archery seems to run ever shorter.

Desert Archer,
I'd rather not mix my Radian with going about in the field, it's my only competition bow and I cannot afford another one. These things are very, very expensive around here (just to give you an idea, the X-200 was 267 euros - over 350 US$ at the current exchange rates, what with shipping costs, import duties, VAT, etc.)
Besides, I love that short, light, beautiful X-200 and the feeling of just pulling it out, stringing it, and shooting.
I even found out that using such light bows has improved my shooting - I must concentrate more on bow control and line, less on expecting the bow weight to take care of things.

Pinelander,
Some years ago I was shooting those same 2012, for indoor shooting only. Then I found out I could shoot as well indoors, if not better, with the same ACEs I shot outdoors, decided it was nice not to have to re-tune my bow every time the indoor season started, and gave up aluminiums...
I must stress I am a very low-level archer.

Thanks again, people. I will keep in touch.
Gonçalo

Gonçalo
03-21-2005, 02:24 PM
Sorry for double post, you managed to get in some more posts while I replied. I will wait a couple days more before posting again, who knows what may come...
:thankyou:

Holmes
03-22-2005, 07:36 PM
Holms -

if you're shooting full lenght shafts (32") then 1816s would probably be too soft. Also, if that bow is 10 -12 years old, add #5 to the draw weight. Martin had serious scale problems in the early 90's. All their bows came out heavier than marked.

Viper out.

Howdy Viper,

The Hunter is a brand new one but I haven't been able to scale it yet. It does feel like its in the ballpark though.

My full length 1916s are 30.25", same as the 1816s. Wish they had another inch on 'em! I'm usiong the Jazz and the Gamegetter IIs. Are some of the other 1916 versions longer?

Bareshafted the bow/1916s today and got a bit of a surprise. They flew nock left with 65 gr points from 20 yds. Going to 125s resulted in a slight overspine flight.

I've not bareshafted before because my skills are just getting to the point where I can be consistent enough to quantify the results.

The bareshafting also showed me that my nockset position was incorrect. Amazing what three little feathers can hide, eh?!

I still think I'll try the 1816s with some light points just for the hell of it. I just picked up an older Hoyt G-Medalist, 33# @ 28". They ought to be perfect for that stick.

Thanks for your input.

-Holmes

Viper
03-23-2005, 07:11 AM
Holmes -

Believe the xx75/GG2 1916s are 32".

I'm probably the only guy here how doesn't believe in bare shaft tuning. I've seen too many people waste too much time for too little pay off. But, most of the top guys here do it, so what ever works I guess.

Viper out.

Pinelander
03-23-2005, 10:54 AM
Just a side note - I bareshaft enough to know I'm pretty close, but really the only thing I pay attention to is where they impact on the target. Maybe I should be looking at arrow in flight also, but I seem to have a hard time doing that and getting the shot off correctly as well.

swampy
03-23-2005, 11:22 AM
You seem well guided on arrows all I have to offer is

WELCOME ABOARD!!! :cheers: