Cherokee bows

[Steve Harville]

I just read Al Herrin's book about Cherokee Bows and Arrows. I got some good info about cornstalk competition and primitive methods. I bought the book from Mike Yancey (http://www.pinehollowlongbows.com/). We discussed the Cherokee Nation annual Cornstalk shoot's primitive class (http://www.cherokee.org/extras/holiday/52/holidaystory.asp?ID=79). He told me it's not restricted to Cherokees but they were kinda picky about following the rules.
Their rules are pretty strict. I think I can do it except maybe the primitive cornstalk arrow points.

Here's my plan :
Make a real long, heavy osage bow that barely bends in the handle, as narrow as possible for 70-80 pounds
Kill a groundhog and make a precision rawhide string
Snapping turtle neck is second choice for string.
Split some black locust and make some heavy arrows.
Second choice is bamboo arrows.
Get a ham and make some long points out of the bone.
Practice a lot at 100 yards
Make a trip to Arkansas to visit in-laws.
Abandon family and spend most of my time in Oklahoma shooting.
Bring home first place trophy :)

Let me know which part of my plan is most unlikely and I will adjust as necessary.

[Minuteman]

I don't think that any one part of your plan is any more or less likely than any other.
If you are gonna abandon your family at the In Laws you might want to make sure yer wife ain't already mad about something else so be a good boy for a while before hand.
You may come back with your trophy and shes moved back in with her parents.
Sometimes that dont seem too bad.
You got lotsa locust for arows don't ya?
That competition is all about penetration isn't it? Don't they count the # of stalks you shoot through and score it that way somehow?
The tips I've seen were pretty long , maybe 10 " long.

[Steve Harville]

Yeah, the family always want to go to the shoots when I get ready to go. I usually bring them along.

I have only seen some metal cornstalk points at Ace's (http://www.bowsite2.com/aceshopping/product1.asp?SID=2&Product_ID=122) booth.

Do you think a skinny point whittled from osage would work?

[Minuteman]

I dunno ,man. Its gonna need to be able to take a bunch of punishment.You could probably use a 3/32" steel rod, pound one end to a point, and flatten the other end so it could be slotted into an arrow tip like a tradepoint. You'd have to get some hide glue to glue it in with and maybe wrap it with some sinew if you have any so you could stay within the "primitive" rules. I like a challenge I'll see what I can come up with this evening. How many tips do you need for the shoot?
The arrows are gonna need to be pretty stiff for such a long heavy point but I guess the fact that the bow's not gonna be anywhere near center shot would necessitate a weaker spine arrow so it might not be too awful huge.

[BLACK WOLF]

I would go with the bamboo arrow with about an 8" steel rod inserted into it.

Ray ;)

[Steve Harville]

Well, the rules say you have to use wood, bone or hand forged iron.

[BLACK WOLF]

OK...than go with the iron ;)

Ray ;)

[Steve Harville]

I went back and re-read the rules

Arrows: Wood, Bone, Forged or Hammered Spike
NO REWORKED FIELD POINTS

Looks like hammered steel would work. The ones I saw yesterday at the Ace booth were about 8" long.

So, Minuteman, If you want to donate to the cause, those spikes should work.

BlackWolf, I already have a bunch of bamboo arrows made up to shoot in my regular bow. I just got some more canes yesterday for staking tomatoes (of course I got some extras :) ).

I have spent a little time working on locust arrows and they are a lot of work. I will go ahead and finish some to compare with the bamboo.

[BLACK WOLF]

Steve,

As you probably already know, penetration into the cornstalks is an important aspect of the cornstalk shoot as it is hitting the target ;)

With that being said...you want to apply the principles of increasing penetration to improve your score.

Alot of this you probably already know.

For starters try and achieve as close to the optimum of these suggestions.

Tune your bow and arrow combination to achieve the best flight possible with each arrow. I would suggest bareshaft tuning every arrow before you put feathers on them so you can assure optimum penetration due to your bow and arrow tuning and try to mach them as close as possible concerning weight.

Make a heavy arrow within your accuracy limitations at 100 yrds. In other words don't make an arrow so heavy you have to shoot so high above the target at 100 yrds. you have no aiming reference.

Try to make the arrows as thin as possible and still achieve good arrow flight.
If you can taper them towards the nock that would be great.

Keep your feathers small enough to still stabilize the arrow, yet small enough to not add to much drag to slow the arrow down at those longer distances and don't add to much helical either. That can also contribute to slowing down your arrow.

One more thing I can think of right now...try to have your FOC on the high side, which would be around 14% or a little higher.

That should help get you going.

Ray ;)

[Steve Harville]

Ray, sounds like you have done some cornstalk shooting. Thanks for all the good ideas.

Tuning arrows
One reason I'm favoring locust arrows is that I can adjust spine without adjusting length and gap. Although bamboo is a lot easier and I would probably be holding my hand over the target anyway so arrow length may not be a big deal. I was thinking of barrel tapering the locust, but a full taper would give better FOC and might match the bamboo better. In the past I have matched bamboo by weight and the spine usually follows pretty close, with slight length adjustments.

Aiming
I shoot three under, but may have to change to split just because of self nocks and no nock point. That would lower the arrow some.

String
I am looking for a place to hunt groundhogs because they and squirrels are supposed to be best for strings. Groundhog season is open year round here but the only place I know of a big concentration is in a state park. I can get goat rawhide from the local leather shop.

Bow
I have 3-4 small diameter osage staves about 7 1/2 feet long. I'd like to make the handle as narrow as possible. Any recommendations on that? I guess I could make several and pick the best. If I have to do that, I'll make one from a shorter stave also.

[Minuteman]

I don't think I'd make the bow any longer than 6 feet,Steve. Just MO, though. Seems like with osage you should have no problems getting 70#with a bow of that design. Prepare to get our fillings shook loose. Those bend in the handle bows usually have alot of handshock. Maybe this one won't though because of the length. The only bendy handle bows I've made were 60" or so , so they are a different story.The long heavy arrows will help too.
How many points do you need Steve? I'm no blacksmith so I can't say whether or not they'll hold up to being shot into a pile of cornstalks. I'll get my first one tempered this evening and start on another. When's the shoot?

[Steve Harville]

I think the shoot is Labor Day. That's when it was last year.
Two points is probably enough. I could resharpen them after practicing.
Or I could rig up some practice points that matched in weight.
I was thinking the bow could be whip tillered to reduce the amount of limb movement and longer would let me narrow it more and have a thicker handle that still bent a little at full draw.

[BLACK WOLF]

Steve,

I'm not sure what you mean by resharpening, but I believe you will do better concerning penetration into a cornstalk bale with a needle style point if you are contemplaiting a broadhead style point.

Ray ;)

[Steve Harville]

You are right. I guess the point would be OK unless I hit a rock while practicing.:)

[Minuteman]

I didn't get it done man, sorry, its pounded out to shape just not tempered yet. E- mail me a shipping address and I'll mail 'em up to ya soon as I get 'em done. I'll try to get 3 done so you got a spare . You're gonna have to haft these like a trade point you know. They may not hold up I don't know. I hate to get your hopes up and have 'em not work. But hey you get what you pay for I guess.
Its highly unlikely they will be doing anything but travelling perfectly straight towards the target by the time they get to 100 yards I mean thats plenty of time for even an improperly matched arrow to straighten out. All that length just give the tip a whole lotta leverage to break the end of the arrow off. If you can get e'm glued in and whipped onto the shaft , and refrain from shooting them at less than 20 yards they just might do what you want. Dang, I wanna go work on em now . I'll wrap em up tomorrow. You can bring the trophy over to my place when we have the bow bee this summer. Ill pose for a picture. Its the least you could do....

[Steve Harville]

You don't have to mail them. I can come pick them up.

I've been thinking about what you said about bow length. I have some better staves about 6 feet long. I think I will go for about 70-72 inches. I'll just narrow it as much as possible. I'd have to go to a longer draw to get the most from a 7 foot bow.
I'm still looking for a place to shoot a groundhog. Seems the coyotes have been eating most of them around here.
The locust I've been splitting is some billet wood I picked up last winter and it's still not completeley dry. It should dry faster now. I am making the arrows about 34 inches long. Want me to make you some?

[Papabull]

I'm surprised no one pointed out the challenge you'll be faced with when trying to build an all-wood bow scale capable of accurately weighting a 70-80 pound Cherokee bow. As I think about this some more, how did the ancient bowmakers assure their bow scales were properly calibrated? The white man uses auditors today but now that I think about it, I don't recall any such role in tribal culture. I think there are still a lot of things we have yet to understand about it. :)

[Minuteman]

Well he should't have any trouble seeing as how he normally pulls around a 70#osage ( was it 68#or 78#, I can't remember)flatbow. All he has to do is make it a little stronger than he's used to and it'll be 'round 80#. The man is a horse lemme tell ya!
Steve ,I'll let ya know when I get the other 2 done and you can come get 'em or I'll mail 'em makes no difference to me. It would be good to go stumpin or just shoot some if ya came down. Either way I'll need a little while to finish 'em up.

[Steve Harville]

Yeah I shoot 78 pounds, so I can tell. Hopefully it would feel lighter with the longer bow.

I could use a bucket of rocks to weigh it, then I'd just have to convert from "stone" to "pound" (80 lb = 5.7 stones).

Minuteman, I'm still splitting arrows, nowhere near ready for the points. Stump shootin sounds good.

[Steve Harville]

I happened to see some pictures of Cherokee bow and arrows posted on TradGang and asked the owner if I could post them on my web site. This was good timing, they answered some questions I had. Click on the thumbnails for more detail.
http://www.tradtalk.com/index.php?ind=blog&op=home&idu=63&singlepost=29 (http://www.tradtalk.com/index.php?ind=blog&op=home&idu=63&singlepost=29)

[Steve Harville]

I have made a little progress on this project.

Link to Cherokee Bow in progress (http://www.tradtalk.com/index.php?ind=blog&op=home&idu=63&singlepost=47)

[BLACK WOLF]

Lookin' great...Steve!

Ray ;)

[Steve Harville]

Thanks Ray, I added the measurements to the description last night.

1 1/4 inches wide, 7/8" thick at the grip , 66 1/2" nock to nock, 1/2 inch tips. 70 pounds at 28".

[George Tsoukalas]

Looks good, Steve. Jawge

[Steve Harville]

Thanks George
I have some arrows made up. I used some old bamboo arrows and added osage points to them. The locust arrows could be finished up in time, but I got tired of messing with them.
My biggest roadblock is the string. I have broken 2 goat rawhide strings. I got some cow rawhide and I am drying a new string now. The cow rawhide is strong, but really thick. I may have to cut the bow shorter so I'll have tips wide enough for the string.
I have a habit of making really narrow tips to help performance. With a big heavy string, I don't think the width of the tips matters. Same with a stiff handle for better "feel". I don't think it matters. I am discovering for myself why the ancient Indians made bows the way they did.
I am updating the web site sporadically. Click in the link in my signature below to see the most current stuff.

[Steve Harville]

I gave up on rawhide because I had to make it too big in order to keep from breaking. So now I'm trying gut.

Update here. (http://www.tradtalk.com/index.php?ind=blog&op=home&idu=63)

[Phil]

Steve ...
Just wanted to let you know how much I'm enjoying this thread, seeing the development of the bow and the string is absolutly fascinating.. Thank you

P.S. Ever thought of turning this into a small book.. I'd buy it

[Steve Harville]

Thanks Phil, the string development is something I could do without. I'm beginning to wonder how they strung their heavy war bows.
I got home last night and tried a 6 strand gut string. Seemed OK. I tried rebracing this morning and broke it. Tried the 7 strand, broke it. Same with the 8 strand. The shoot is next weekend. I will give gut another shot since I still have some. Squirrel season is open so I might get some skins. But the Cornstalk shoot is next weekend. :(